Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 March 22

= March 22 =

Latin alphabet to Cyrillic script
I am trying to change the Indian forename Dinesh (दिनेश) into the Russian Cyrillic script, but I can't figure out if it should be ДИНЕШ or ДИНЭШ, or maybe something else entirely. I don't really understand the difference between E and Э, but I think the latter might be correct for Russian, given the information in the respective articles. Could you assist? Many thanks for any help that you are able to provide! 81.101.120.9 (talk) 01:49, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * ДИНЭШ is closer to the Hindi name than ДИНЕШ is, because ДИНЭШ lacks the pre-vocalic slide /j/. It still looks strange (and sounds strange). I think ДИЙНЭШ would be better. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 03:23, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think you're right. Э is not widely used in transliteration after consonants in spite of pronunciation. Andhra Oradesh is Андхра Прадеш. Дийнэш looks even more strange.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 07:25, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, it would, wouldn't it, being a non-Russian name... KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 13:09, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It looks strange not from the POV of the Russian language but from the traditional Hindi-to-Russian transliteration.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:03, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * What's your motive for the Й? I could see using it to mark a long vowel, but the original vowel is short. —Tamfang (talk) 00:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Whoops, my Hindi is rusty - I took the दि to be a d plus a long i. Sorry. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 12:18, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks so much! Is that also the same translation for the Anglicised version/pronunciation of the name? 81.101.120.9 (talk) 03:33, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Given it's not pronounced Deenesh in American English by people like Dinesh D'Souza, I'd use Дынзш if you want to stay close to the way he says it in English. I am surprised, however, if there's no pre-existing convention.  You can ask User:Любослов Езыкин and User:JackofOz who are our resident experts. 05:20, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Dynzsh (what you've actually written) would be a quite good variant if you transliterate from Abkhazian or Adyghe. ;) --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 07:25, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * You'll have to forgive me, the print is very small and I am at the point where I need reading glasses. It looked like э when I clicked on it.  No offense, but Cyrillic really is clumsy from a typesetting/legibility point of view. μηδείς (talk) 17:56, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm offended. Cyrillic is perfect! You, Westerners, don't even see how clumsy your beloved Latin alphabet can be. I/l/1, rm/nn, h/n to name few. When we conquer the world we cyrillize all of you!--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:03, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Will that be painful? Is it like Caramelization?  The h/n problem is no worse than the Che/Tse problem, but I agree with you about bad typesetting of rm/nn/m, and the badly-designed fonts that don't distinguish between I, l and 1.     D b f i r s   09:27, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Ч and Ц are perfectly differentiated, as they've two different shapes. All these lamentations about poor legibility of Cyrillic is only the sign of bad knowledge of it (typical for native Latinists or Chinese - the latter can make really fun examples of "Russnese"). The nation using Cyrillic have no such problems. Yes, we have sweeties and cookies, come to our side.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:43, 25 March 2014 (UTC)


 * So does using the ы instead of И make the "in" bit be pronounced as "in" instead of "een"? Thanks 81.101.120.9 (talk) 17:17, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The contrast between ‹и› and ‹ы› is arguably about as near as you'll get to representing the contrast in English between the full and reduced vowels, but it's far from perfect. —Tamfang (talk) 00:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

The convention at ru:Индийско-русская практическая транскрипция suggests "Динеш". It is unusual for Э to occur after a consonant in Russian words and even in transcriptions of foreign names, though in certain cases it does: see Э#Э in modern Russian and ru:Э (the latter is in Russian) for examples. --Theurgist (talk) 18:15, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you all! 81.101.120.9 (talk) 03:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Whether it is/be
Is one more grammatically correct than the other? Whether it be... OR whether it is...? To me, the first sounds a bit more snobbish but is it any more right? If you want some context, I last heard "whether it be" on NPR today during their pledge drive when they were saying something like "Support us because you like one of our programs. Whether it be "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" or "All Things Considered", there's something that keeps bringing you back to NPR..." Thanks, Dismas |(talk) 03:28, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * See English subjunctive. "Whether it be..." makes no claim that any statement is necessarily true.  "Whether it is ...because you are a monster, or because you just like children" implies you are indeed both a monster and do like children, but which of those factors is the cause of your cannibalism is unclear.  Consider again, although the parallel is inexact, the difference between "I insist he is here (he's behind the door)" and "I insist he be here (or I'll fine him $1,000)".  The second "be" form makes no factual claim regarding his actual presence. μηδείς (talk) 03:43, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * However, this "be" subjunctive is now a little old-fashioned, except in certain fixed phrases and expressions, or in the "I insist that he be removed from the room" construction (which is less used in British English than American English). AnonMoos (talk) 06:09, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * For information on the latter phenomenon, see Comparison_of_American_and_British_English (specifically, the sentence regarding subjunctive mood and mandative clauses.--74.72.255.103 (talk) 13:27, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

'Mu-um!', 'Da-ad!' - making two syllables out of one
- what's it called? - is there a term for it? - I thought it was diphthong but was told I was dipthwrong... Can anyone help?

Adambrowne666 (talk) 04:10, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Not sure this is quite what you mean, but the melody (often a descending minor third where I live) is sometimes referred to as "calling contour" or "vocative chant" in phonology. ---Sluzzelin talk  05:21, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * It would probably just be called emphasis, although it could be called lengthening with intermedial hiatus. There's also a tonal aspect someone else might comment on. μηδείς (talk) 05:23, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I would call it a "southernism", as per Southern American English. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:24, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * In Liverpool (UK) English, our tonality is the exact opposite of standard UK English, so with an exclamation such as this, it would go up at the end (and with a kind of growl between the first part of the lengthened vowel and the second part). KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 08:04, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've often heard that, and also a version with continuous rising rather than split into two syllables. It's probably wider than just Liverpool, but I'm not sure how wide.  I think it's heard as far north as Cumbria (but I'll have to listen more carefully).    D b f i r s   11:42, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Very wide spread. Some (not all) kids here in Australia go "Mu-um" too.  And not just those with a British influence - 3rd and 4th generation Australian kids do it.  1.122.115.27 (talk) 12:16, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * My nephews (with their Boston accent) drive my sister (with her Delaware Valley accent) crazy by calling her "Maugham" with a double-long awe. μηδείς (talk) 23:04, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, as far as I can tell, it's very widespread - wonder if it might even be universal - worthy of a linguistics PhD thesis? Anyway, thanks, all, for your responses - I'm going with lengthening with intermedial hiatus... Adambrowne666 (talk) 10:41, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Crabtree sticks
What are crabtree sticks and why do they feature in John Barleycorn (in the hands of hir-ed men)? 109.151.244.111 (talk) 08:47, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * A crab tree is a crab-apple tree, but the word can be used as an adjective (OED) meaning crooked or knotted, so a crabtree stick would simply be any crooked or knotted stick. Illustrative quote from the OED: "The cadets suffered themselves to be beaten with a crabtree stick" 1886.--Shantavira|feed me 09:12, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The sticks would have been used in threshing poor John, as explained here. Threshing was a seasonal activity and so it was likely that men would be hired in to do this work. The words "crabsticks" or "crab cudgels" were often used to denote weapons. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:10, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Rather different from these crabsticks and much less edible.--74.72.255.103 (talk) 18:28, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * look... it's just like Wikipedia: Martinevans123 (talk) 18:48, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

You can manage anyway?
I need your advice here. The situation is: The teacher wanted Tom to be a team leader, but the latter didn't think he was qualified enough. What could the teacher say to him to mean that there was no one else better than him though he was not a very good candidate. Could the teacher say something like "You can make do." or "You can manage anyway." Is there any expression right for the context in English? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.226.115 (talk) 11:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * (kind) "You're the best we've got."
 * (not so kind) "You're the best of a bad lot." Clarityfiend (talk) 12:43, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * "We don't have any more barrels to scrape the bottom of."? KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 13:04, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * In this case, it appears that while Tom thinks he is not up to it (perhaps its outside his comfort zone), the teacher maybe he is. In such cases a bit of positive reinforcement can go a long way.  Try "I think you are are up the the role.  You can handle it."  1.122.115.27 (talk) 16:08, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * For a more neutral tone, try "You're the best candidate for the job". This makes no mention of the fact that they are the best only because everybody else is a really bad choice. StuRat (talk) 16:15, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * "the kids need someone to look up to, whilst I need someone to look down on....." KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 17:08, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The best the teacher can do is to say, "I have faith in you." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:11, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Japanese character identification
I'm getting better at this. But I still cannot pick the right character in many cases. Can some nice person please identify the characters shown at http://i61.tinypic.com/do10cm.jpg? 1.122.115.27 (talk) 15:59, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Microsoft IME - it's already on your computer! This is something we get paid for (unless the agency has a name which roughly translates into Mickey Mouse in Arabic). KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 17:05, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * We covered this before. I know it's part of the Microsoft offering.  I don't have any difficulty entering Japanese characters - I've already been doing that.  What is difficult for me is working out what the characters are in a document created by somebody else.  Not much good being able to enter characters if I can't work out which characters they are.  I'm getting better at character recognition  (you will have noticed I have only given you bits and pices, not the whole multi-page documents), but it is not easy, especially as the document is old and faded.  Reading an old faded document in English is easy - there is considerable redundancy, and you get plenty of context information.  But not being a Japanese speaker, context clues are diffult to come by in this case.  A literal or machine translation of Japanese into English is typically a very odd result, but the meaning is usually obvious once you have all of it.  It isn't just their grammar - they have (from an English speaker's viewpoint) an odd way of saying things.
 * KageTora, I really appreciate what you've done for me. I'm not doing this for commercial gain - if I was I could spend the bosses's money on a local professional translator.  I'm restoring to museum standard an old laboratory instrument which uses the 6R-A3 in its' regulated power supply, and the instrument manual and the 6R-A3 datasheet are in Japanese.  1.122.115.27 (talk) 02:09, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, don't get me wrong - I wasn't thinking this was for financial gain or anything of the sort. I was merely saying that the IME pad lets you use your mouse to write the Japanese kanji if you don't know the pronunciation - I use it myself sometimes, when I have forgotten how to pronounce a certain kanji and need to have it on-screen - it's far faster than using my Nelson kanji dictionary from my schooldays ;)! KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 11:06, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * ６R-A3を２本使ったSEPPに使用したときEbb=260V,RL=200Ωでは１０Wの出力が得られ、Ebb=450V,RL=400Ωとしますと２７Wの高出力が得られます.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.66.9 (talk) 23:56, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, 86.130.66.91.  It's a big help :-) 1.122.115.27 (talk) 02:09, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Chinese Translation Urgently Needed!!
I kindly request a translation into Chinese, the traditional Chinese used in Taiwan:

"'''Is your baby aged 3-5 years old and wears extra large diapers?

If so, Send me a friend request and receive FREE 妙而舒 diapers!

Share with your friends and receive FREE extra large diapers!'''"

The '妙而舒' refers to the Merries brand of Diapers sold in Taiwan. Thank you Wikipedia. --Holbrook West Parish (talk) 20:03, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * “是你的宝宝年龄3-5岁，是一个胖他妈的混蛋穿着特大号纸尿裤？

如果是的话，请发给我一个好友请求，并免费接收大量的垃圾邮件！

你的朋友分享，让他们永远恨你与我们分享他们的电子邮件进行更多的垃圾邮件！“ <- Not traditional Chinese, but they will understand - they use both in Taiwan and in China. I would also recommend getting a proper translator to translate this, as your business needs it. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 20:11, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Reported. --Holbrook West Parish (talk) 21:27, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Um, does Wikipedia now offer a free translation service for any conceivable foreign-language business need? How very accommodating. I had thought this page was in some way connected to improving Wiki articles. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 22 March 2014 (UTC) ... alternatively, HWP, if we send you a translation, without the swear words, that passes the Google Translate test, could you send two free packs? Thanks.
 * I think the lesson here is: if you're running a business and you need a translation urgently, do what is good business practice, and pay for the translation.--Shirt58 (talk) 01:51, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Quite agree. But my mistake - it's open house here are Ref desk/Language, so it's not surprising that both clients and responders can occasionally get caught out in the grey areas between genuine enquiries, commercial pressures and simple trolling. To be fair, KageTora did state "Not traditional Chinese" and gave very sound advice. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:45, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Free advice is worth every cent you pay for it. See WP:CHINESECHARACTERTATTOO. (WP:TATTOO was already taken.) --Shirt58 (talk) 11:13, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * And you don't get free diapers with Encyclopaedia Britannica. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:27, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Where is the rule that says Wikipedia cannot offer translations for business needs? I've never heard of such a rule, nor does it make much sense--if an OP wants to make a fool out of themselves and use the Internet for translations, how does that hurt Wikipedia in any way?
 * Martinevans123 is definitely wrong in saying that this page is connected to improving Wiki articles. It's not; it's a reference desk for people to ask questions at.  The vast majority of questions have nothing to do with improving any article.  --Bowlhover (talk) 16:00, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I said "my mistake". Maybe we should all stop editing articles and concentrate on translating, for free, for whichever companies need stuff translating - so they can make money for themselves? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:34, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Look, the guy - fundamentalist christian - was obviously looking for some free translation, rather then spending some time and money finding out for himself. The sooner these Harry Potter-philes learn they are in the world alone, without some God to help out, the better for them. Just stop this idiotic nonsensical 'discussion'. FFS. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 16:41, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Again, which rule of Wikipedia says that free translations are not allowed? You've helped translate for many OPs here on the Reference Desk, and so have I.  Is there a rule that says translations for commercial purposes are not allowed, but all other translations are OK?  There have been sci-fi authors who asked about science on the Science Desk.  I've never seen anyone question the acceptability of those questions on the grounds that we're helping the authors make money.  --Bowlhover (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope, no rule, no rule at all, none whatsoever, zero, zilch, and nuffink. Nothing at all says that what I did was unwrong, nor did anyfink say that what I did was wrong. Which rule of Wikipedia says that free translations for commercial purposes ARE allowed? Just drop it. This is an encyclopaedia, not a troll-board. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 19:22, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Which rule says you're allowed to write "nuffink" and "anyfink" at the language desk? ---Sluzzelin talk  19:46, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * yes, we're probably driving Japanese editors away. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Do we need rule specifically stating that we can? I thought the usual way of doing things round here was to get angry and form a little Cali schoolgirl clique and inform a user that they do not agree with his postings.... I've done nuffink wrong, and all my posts have been anyfink but wrong. The recent attack on me has been really weird - with most people agreeing with me, and even the people disagreeing with me were agreeing with me, just to be all happi-crappi with their volounteer colleagues (hence my continuous reference to Cali schoolgirl cliques - we get that crap on TV here in the UK, too, unfortunately). KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag)

what is the meaning of diabetes melitus?
I have seen that the meaning is a sweet urine. But in the wiki written that the meaning is "through sweet". What is the true about? 213.57.123.85 (talk) 22:30, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Our article diabetes mellitus has a detailed etymology section at the bottom. Diabetes means "allowing to pass through (excess urine)" and mellitus means "honeyed", referring to the sugar (which can be tasted) in the urine. μηδείς (talk) 22:57, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Assuming you meant to ask what the "through" is about, the whole thing is short for "passing large amounts of sweet urine (through the urethra)". As is often the case when such things are abbreviated, it no longer makes much sense.  For example, "homophobia", taken literally, means "same fear". StuRat (talk) 23:04, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Passing urine through the urethra, as opposed to through the ear canal? O_o  I think the through just meant the body/person as a such, without regard to specific path. μηδείς (talk) 23:09, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * As opposed to through the ureters from the kidneys to the bladder, or, in the case of obstetric fistula, say, through the vagina. StuRat (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * So if an abnormally high volume of sweet urine flows into the bladder but not out, that's not d.m.? —Tamfang (talk) 23:58, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Of course it is, but those aren't the symptoms the Greeks noticed, and named the disease after. (And if urine isn't passing from the bladder, the patient has another serious medical condition, too.)StuRat (talk) 00:19, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Look up ceteris paribus. I am aware there are all sorts of possible unusual qualifications.  But we don't usually call unmarried males (who are chimp-robot cyborg Catholic priests) eligible bachelors, either. μηδείς (talk) 00:45, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * That last comment is inscrutable. Or should I say that you should look up Occam's razor while sharpening an electric banana with a pastry chef ?  I'd diagnose you with a stroke, if that wasn't counter to our medical advice policy. :-) StuRat (talk) 22:20, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

English words with "y" sound
Are there any native English words that begin with a consonant sound followed by a "y" sound, other than ones then followed by an "oo" sound, such as in "a few cute beauties". The only one I can think of so far is "fjord", but it isn't really native English. 86.130.66.9 (talk) 23:59, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * My cat offers "meow". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:12, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Opinion, onion, banyan ... Offhand I haven't thought of one in a stressed syllable, though. —Tamfang (talk) 00:33, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Um, they don't fulfil the requirements. The word needs to begin with that sound. 86.130.66.9 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:43, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Oops. —Tamfang (talk) 17:20, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Billy Joel sings "The Pyano Man", but his diction is somewhat unusual. There's also Myanmar. There's also the impossible to pronounce volcano in Iceland. μηδείς (talk) 00:50, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Björk? –Nyet. 71.20.250.51 (talk) 01:24, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Somewhere along the way the "native English word" requirement seems to have been overlooked. 86.130.66.9 (talk) 01:51, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

IP 86 is hereby declared the winner. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. μηδείς (talk) 03:14, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I think that "curious", "curate", and so forth may be valid examples in some dialects. The way I say the words is more "kyer" than "kyoo". 86.130.66.9 (talk) 12:51, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * You mentioned "cute" and "beauties" as examples initially, and while they're not exact matches with "curious" and "curate", they're still in the neighborhood, i.e. the "oo" in "boot" vs. "book". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:12, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree that they are in the neighbourhood but not necessarily identical. I also believe that this is speaker-dependent. For me, the difference is more akin to boot"/"bird" than to "boot"/"book". 86.130.66.9 (talk) 13:31, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, more like "bird". But still a "u" or "oo" sound. Precious few other sounds follow a consonant plus a consonantal "y", it seems. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:32, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Nyancat KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 12:57, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Bureau. It may be from the French, but it's been part of English for a long time now. StuRat (talk) 13:44, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * 'Furious', in some dialects is (/'fjo:riəs/) (including my own). KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 13:47, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * On that basis, you could add "curious", "cure", "pure", "jury" and probably many others that I can't think of at the moment. Alansplodge (talk) 21:15, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't these fall outside the OP's purview? He has excluded words where the "y" sound is then followed by an "oo" sound, such as in "a few cute beauties". --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:31, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Jack, I was unaware that you were unable to recognize the letter 'o' - it's that big round one that looks like a circle. Curiously, it's the same shape as the mouth when making the sound it represents. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 11:23, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * ??? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:19, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Still ???, User:KageTora. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:26, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe I have misunderstood, Jack, but I was saying that in my dialect (and others), when pronouncing 'furious', et al., we use an 'o' sound, rather than a 'u' sound. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 10:15, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * For my purposes, "cute", "beauty", etc. is one "family". "curious", "furious", "pure", "bureau", etc. is another. I don't need more examples in these families now. Foreign words and names and are inadmissable. "pyano" is an interesting near miss. Made-up noises are inadmissable, but "nyah" is recognised as a word by at least one dictionary, so I guess I should allow it. 86.130.66.9 (talk) 01:20, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Liaise/liaison might work if one's dialect permitted the L-yay-z(on) pronunciation, as mine seems to. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  02:37, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


 * All words are either foreign or made up at some point. "Cute", "beauty", "curious", "furious", "pure", "bureau" etc., all come from French.  Old English didn't have the z or v phonemes, but people could make and distinguish those sounds.  Eventually the influence of words borrowed from French or Greco-Latin like zero and veal did make those sounds "native" English.  When did that happen?  With the native-word affordable care act of 1492?  There are all sorts of borderline cases, and you have been afforded quite a few.  (I see gnocchi is left out, and no New Yorker would say that's a made-up word.)  Insisting these are not "real" words is like insisting one doesn't have an accent, only other people do. μηδείς (talk) 06:25, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It's interesting you should say that O.E. did not have a 'v' sound, when Henry Sweet says that the 'f' between vowels was most likely pronounced as a 'v' - in the same way that it is in Mn.Icelandic. Of course, we can never know, as the Anglo-Saxons were not exactly well-known for writing down much about their language, and spelling in those days was notoriously haphazard. <font face="MV Boli" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 10:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I am already very well aware of all this, thank you. I am using common sense. And there are NO borderline cases that I have rejected. You seem to be referring to a thread that exists in your imagination. 86.169.185.98 (talk) 12:21, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Fjord. <font face="MV Boli" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 10:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

"Pyow"! Beloved of warmongering children in the UK. --Dweller (talk) 14:50, 28 March 2014 (UTC)