Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 March 27

= March 27 =

how ignorant art thou in thy pride of wisdom
In a recent computer game is a quote from Frankenstein. I'm not certain what is being conveyed. "how ignorant art thou in thy pride of wisdom". Are they saying that this magistrate reckons they're smarter than they are? Maybe even ignorant because of this undeserved pride they have for wisdom they don't actually posses? --78.148.110.69 (talk) 01:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I take it to mean "You're not as smart as you think you are". In the case of Dr Frankenstein, one could argue that he was intelligent enough to know how to bring the dead back to life, but not wise enough to know that doing so was a really bad idea.StuRat (talk) 01:30, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * If you wish to read the quote in context, it's here. Frankenstein wants the monster destroyed, but the magistrate doubts his account, but if true, he doubts that the monster can be caught. When Frankenstein becomes agitated; 'He [the magistrate,] endeavoured to soothe me as a nurse does a child, and reverted to my tale as the effects of delirium. "Man," I cried, "how ignorant art thou in thy pride of wisdom! Cease; you know not what it is you say."' Frankenstein is desperately trying to persuade the magistrate to believe his evidence and to take immediate action. The magistrate's "wisdom" is leading him to the conclusion that the monster is a figment of Frankenstein's imagination. Alansplodge (talk) 16:32, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * See also Mrs. Breen's Senior English on this quote. Alansplodge (talk) 18:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Origin of the "not safe for work" warning
So just what is the history of the not safe for work warning that's used whenever "inappropriate" material is discussed in a website? Or stub on the warning gives only a description of its use, but does not elaborate on its etymology or history. Did the term even exist before the Internet/Usenet, or not, ala "spoiler"? If it is a relatively recent term, when and where was it first used? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:24, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The term wasn't used in that sense before the internet. According to Know Your Meme, the first known use happened on Fark, August 22, 2000: “Vote for Fark in the StileProject Top 100. Not safe for work. Not safe period.”. Know Your Meme has more info, including on the earlier "Not For British School Kids" (NFBSK) in 1998, links to snopes etc. ---Sluzzelin talk  02:48, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information: can someone add those to our article? I know KYM isn't reliable, but maybe Fark is? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:00, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

about verb tense
I came across the following sentence. He wondered: Has Henry turned well? Has Mary come back home safe and sound? I'm inclined to use past perfect tense after the colon. Am I right? Or is the sentence a correct one? Thank you.-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.234.184 (talk • contribs)
 * Unless you mean that Henry has rotated with some degree of skill, you should probably say Has Henry become well. Aside from that, it would be better to offset with quotation marks rather than a colon. He wondered, "Has Henry become well? Has Mary returned home safe and sound?" Regarding the tense, it would be better to use did if some time had passed after the action [probably] happened; has suggests something more recent.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 09:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Even "become well" sounds odd to me (though it's much better than "turned well"). I'd prefer to say something like "Has Henry's health recovered?" or "Is Henry well again?", or, as Jeffro suggests above, "Did Henry's health recover?"    D b f i r s   12:36, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Or, more idiomatically, "Has Henry gotten better?" (American English), or "Is Henry better now?" Marco polo (talk) 14:07, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * To the question asked: I reckon past perfect is more usual in this sort of narration. —Tamfang (talk) 07:02, 28 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, he or she also asked whether the sentence was correct, and we've responded to that question. On the question of tense, past perfect is the tense to use if the speaker is referring to the current state of events that have happened from the past to the present. However, if the speaker is referring to events that finished before the present, then you would use the simple past (He wondered, "Did Henry get better? Did Mary come back safe and sound?").  Which tense to use depends on the perspective of the speaker.  English verb forms are really as much about aspect and mood as they are about tense, strictly speaking.  Marco polo (talk) 17:37, 28 March 2014 (UTC)


 * If it's an account of speech, then the sentence is incorrect because it lacks quotation marks (though of course if you're a famously eccentric writer you can get away with omitting them). If it's not an account of speech, simple past is less usual.  For example, I have in mind a scene in a Nero Wolfe story, where the narrator has found a murder victim in a place where he doesn't belong. "I stopped to think. Had I put my fingerprint on the light switch? I decided I hadn't, and left the room."  (That's a paraphrase but I'm confident of the tense. Since I first read that story, I've habitually pushed elevator buttons with a knuckle. )  During the event Archie wasn't thinking in pluperfect, but he's not the kind to quote his thoughts as if they were speech.  Some writers quote the internal monologue in italics: "I stopped to think. Did I put a fingerprint on the light switch? No. I left the room." —Tamfang (talk) 20:11, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

vocational schools
Would any friend tell me if vocational schools are where high-school graduates choose to go in the US if they don't enter universities? Thank you!
 * No, in the U.S. the term "vocational school" is usually used for a high school where the standard course of study is primarily career focused rather than college-preparatory focused. That is, students go to vocational schools instead of high schools.  See, for some examples, Greater Lowell Technical High School and Chicago Vocational High School for a few examples.  The term "vocational education" is becoming archaic; in the last ten years or so the new phrase that means the exact same thing is "Career and Technical Education" or "CTE".  In the U.S., schools intended to be attended after high school but instead of universities where vocational training goes on are called community colleges, or sometimes by their older term junior colleges.  Such institutions also allow their credits to be transferred to a standard 4-year university upon completion, but primarily they are focused on job training.  -- Jayron  32  11:12, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * There are certainly non-college vocational schools for post-high school students offering courses in anything from motorcycle maintenance to aircraft mechanics to business and medical assistants. See Career college, For-profit education and the very incomplete Vocational education in the United States. Rmhermen (talk) 18:49, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Some people may also use the term "vocational school" for such institutions as Milwaukee Area Technical College, a member of the Wisconsin Technical College System of state supported vocational, technical, and adult education post-secondary schools. They are public colleges, granting two-year degrees, certifications, etc. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  20:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Absolutely correct. Which is what I said.  However, the specific phrasing "vocational school" is more commonly (as in, not 100%, not never ever used for this and only this, just more commonly, as in most of the time, sometimes its a bit different, but usually) used for high schools rather than post-secondary schools.  -- Jayron  32  17:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
 * . I find things like Rmhermen (talk) 18:37, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Citation provided. -- Jayron  32  02:17, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That doesn't actually address the meaning of the term "vocational school" and the results are far closer than you statement implied. There may also be regional usage differences. Rmhermen (talk) 23:01, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

What a help I'm keeping by apples!
Is there any problem with the sentence "What a help I'm keeping by apples!" The context is: Tom is the owner of an orchard and John is a boy who loves eating apples. The latter often comes to the orchard to help Tom with his work, and in return he gets some apples from Tom. Tom remarks to others jokingly, "What a help I'm keeping by apples!" A lot of thanks!


 * It sounds like complete nonsense. It almost sounds as though you're using by apples in the sense of a euphemism more the idiomatic 'oath', by God, but it still sounds ridiculous.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 10:45, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I had to read it three times before I understood what you meant, and then only with the aid of your context. I assume that you mean "What a good help I'm getting in exchange for apples!" (in which case, why not say that instead of condensing it to the point of incomprehensibility?)    D b f i r s   12:19, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I wonder if you mean "keeping by", in the sense "keeping aside", "keeping to one side". In which case you might say "It's a good thing I've got plenty of apples to hand". Itsmejudith (talk) 14:49, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Stilted, but close to the original: "what help I'm getting by means of apples" is grammatical. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:15, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * "What a helper! I'm paying him with apples!" Clarityfiend (talk) 02:16, 28 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Much better. That "What a help" didn't sound right to me, either. I might split it up, though:

"What a helper", said farmer John, "And I'm paying him with apples !"


 * StuRat (talk) 02:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)


 * "What a bargain, to get such help for apples!" —Tamfang (talk) 07:05, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Upon which the reader asks, "why did the apples need the help?" --jpgordon:==( o ) 15:08, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Dear unsigned: . Martinevans123 (talk) 16:34, 28 March 2014 (UTC)