Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 May 1

= May 1 =

Shakespeare and Olde English
In Shakespeare and Olde English a lot, the letter S seems to be written almost like an f and the letter u is substituted for a V like character. I've noticed this a lot in old newspaper articles and manuscripts as well. Is there any reason for this? I've included an image just to illustrate what I'm on about --Andrew 13:19, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * See Long s and U. Does that help? Deor (talk) 13:23, 1 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Definitely informative, thank you. It just seems a bit strange that there was no capital U for years --Andrew 14:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * That might be related to the fact that capital letters represent an older way of writing the alphabet than the lower-case ones, going back to ancient Rome, when only the form V was used. --50.100.193.30 (talk) 05:37, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Perfectly natural since the Classical Latin "V" was pronounced [w]. There's not that much difference between [w] and [u] phonetically speaking. Peter Isotalo 22:55, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, Shakespeare definitely wrote in Early Modern English, and not in Old English. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:20, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't say "Old English", he said "Olde English". --ColinFine (talk) 14:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The comedy troupe, or the malt liquor? AlexTiefling (talk) 14:59, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I read that as "comedy trope". --ColinFine (talk) 17:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Clearly he is referring to what Wikipedia calls Blackletter. Marco polo (talk) 15:59, 1 May 2014 (UTC)


 * In the word "histories" though the first s is the long s and then the second s is normal, why is that? --Andrew 18:34, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Did you read article Long s? -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:22, 1 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The article refers to "the general rule that the long s 'never occurred at the end of a word" and notes that an alternative name of the modern s was "terminal s". (Just as in typesetting classical Greek ς is used for sigma in word-final positions and σ is used everywhere else.) Deor (talk) 18:52, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * And modern Greek as well: classical Ὀδυσσεύς, modern Οδυσσέας. Lesgles (talk) 17:06, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

How many examples are there in the Chinese language that personify nature? (i.e. 月亮姑姑, 老天爷)
How many examples are there in the Chinese language that personify nature (i.e. moon, sky, etc.)? 140.254.226.235 (talk) 21:33, 1 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, your question doesn't convey too much meaning in that form. Why does Chinese "personify nature" more than other languages which also have words for such things? AnonMoos (talk) 23:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry. A common example is 老天爷. Hope it helps. Apparently, the sky is taken as masculine, and the moon is taken as feminine. So, the pattern may be that the Chinese attributes gender to aspects of nature. 140.254.226.213 (talk) 14:22, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's ask Mother Nature. StuRat (talk) 04:05, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Or Father Sky or Mother Earth. This sort of thing is common many European languages and, I suspect, is somewhat universal in human language. It was probably more common in ancient European languages because of the deification of forces of nature in the form of personified (and gendered) deities. If this feature is more common in modern Chinese than in modern western languages, and I'm not sure that it is, it may be because China's ancient polytheistic religious tradition has never been supplanted in the way that Christianity largely effaced Europe's ancient pagan religions.  Marco polo (talk) 14:33, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Right, there's also father time and Baby New Year in English, but I think the OP was hoping for a number, which would be hard to give. But I agree with your reasoning that examples in Chinese might be easier to come by, and perhaps starting a list would be informative. (Not that I know any Chinese, but it is an interesting question) SemanticMantis (talk) 14:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * It would be hard for me to come up with an exhaustive list in English, and that is my native language. (For example, there is "old man river", "the man in the moon", and so on, and there is the case of the names of planets, which correspond to ancient Gods and might still occasionally be used in a personified and gendered way.  Then, when it comes to poetry, where personification is a standard device, the possibilities are endless.  Personification can be used outside of poetry in metaphors as well. Where does one draw the line?)  My knowledge of Chinese is so incomplete that I wouldn't dare to claim that any list I made was at all complete.  Marco polo (talk) 19:04, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it's important to understand that 老天爷 really is an ancient sky deity. There are lots of pages on the Internet, detailing this deity and its role in Chinese mythology, folklore, and philosophy. I am uncertain about 月亮姑姑, because I've only heard one person use that term, and the term involves a similar format as 老天爷, because it's treating the moon as an aunt in a similar way as one would treat the sky as a grandfather. The pattern that I perceive is that there may be a tendency to not only personify nature, but also apply familial terms to nature. I still can't decide whether usage of 老天爷 nowadays is just a metaphorical way to describe nature or a characteristic of implicit theism (some sort of unconscious belief in a deity). 140.254.226.215 (talk) 20:07, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I was aware that 天 is an ancient deity. The original version of that character was a drawing of him. There is also 嫦娥, and there are probably numerous other such nature gods or spirits.  Marco polo (talk) 01:37, 3 May 2014 (UTC)


 * 老天爷 is an expression of exasperation, much like "Oh my God!" is in English. I don't think theists use it more than atheists.  --Bowlhover (talk) 18:41, 5 May 2014 (UTC)