Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 November 10

= November 10 =

Chinese
I'm looking for a chinese sentence, composed of four words only - identical to each other - except for the tone by which they are different from each other. If you find that difficult, then try three words (but I prefer four). HOOTmag (talk) 08:12, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * There are some examples at One-syllable article. Is that what you mean?--Shantavira|feed me 08:28, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * See Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den Contact Basemetal   here  08:29, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * A simple one often cited for beginners is "妈妈骂马吗" (māma mà mǎ ma, 'Is Mum scolding the horse'), though it lacks an instance of the second tone. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:03, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "妈妈骂麻马" (māma mà má mǎ, "Mother is scolding the numb horse") would contain all the tones, including the neutral tone. If we wanted to omit the neutral tone, then "妈骂麻马" (mā mà má mǎ, no change in meaning) works too. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 07:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * How about 妈骂麻马吗 (i.e. Is mommy scolding the numb horse?) ? HOOTmag (talk) 10:50, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "How about" in what sense? Yes, it's an intelligible sentence, if you don't mind the first tone (mā) being repeated ("妈" and "吗"). — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 11:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Does 妈骂麻马吗 mean: "Is mommy scolding the numb horse?" ?
 * Additionally, how come the 吗 is pronounced with the first tone in the sentence 妈骂麻马吗 - while it's pronounced with the neutral tone in the sentence 妈妈骂马吗 (i.e "Is mommy scolding the horse?") ? HOOTmag (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, "妈骂麻马吗?" means "Is mommy scolding the numb horse?". As for your second question, I think you've missed out the fact that "妈骂" (mā mà, "mother scolds") is not the same as "妈妈" (māma, "mother, mama"). The second character in each phrase is different. I believe the interrogative particle "吗" is usually pronounced mā with a first tone, when used at the end of a question. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 19:43, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Is that what they pronounce it like in Singapore? I'm pretty certain the question particle is neutral tone in Beijing standard Mandarin. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:31, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope, I've missed out nothing! In both sentences, I've been talking about the fifth character, 吗 (because I thought you'd agreed with User:Fut.Perf in their first response). Anyways, as User:Fut.Perf has indicated (in their second response), the character 吗 is pronounced with the neutral tone in Beijing standard Mandarin, so the sentence 妈骂麻马吗?" (meaning "Is mom scolding the numb horse?") has all five tones (with fives words identical to each other except for the tone) - doesn't it? HOOTmag (talk) 22:43, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry, got confused. FutPerf will need to confirm this, then. In Singapore we pronounce it with a first tone. I suppose there's variation between different groups of Mandarin speakers worldwide. I would only use a neutral tone at the end of a sentence if it was not a question but to convey the sense "Well, of course mother is scolding the numb house. What did you expect?" — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 03:13, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * As for Beijing standard Mandarin, I suspect User:Fut.Perf is correct. Anyways, in Singapore, the sentence 妈骂麻马吗!" (meaning "Mom is scolding the numb horse, isn't she?") has all five tones (with fives words identical to each other except for the tone), doesn't it? HOOTmag (talk) 07:23, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The neutral tone is not a real tone and there's no such thing as the neutral tone but four types of neutral tones depending on the neighboring full tones. Every Mandarin Chinese syllable carries intrinsically a full tone but (as for the question particle 'ma') that full tone may be neutralized (although as you can see there are dialectal variations in that process). So, for consistency's sake, you either are content with the example representing the four full tones, or you'd have to have an example with eight syllables showing the four full tones plus the four neutral tones that follow each one of them (see Standard Chinese phonology). The five character example is just an inconsistent concatenation that purports to show the "five tones of Mandarin" when there are only four of them and in fact only shows one example of the neutral tone, that which follows the 3rd tone. Contact Basemetal   here  08:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Interesting! — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 08:53, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Besides a nicer rhythm (think of all the 4 chars phrases) and logical consistency another reason to prefer the 4 syllable example mā mà má mǎ "Mom's scolding a numb horse" is that it is the only example where the 3rd tone has its canonical full shape. When it is followed by the particle 'ma' is is only a so called "half 3rd tone" w/o the subsequent rise. Yes, the pitch of the neutral tone of the particle continues the contour of the full 3rd tone, but it remains that on the 'mǎ' syllable you'd only have a half 3rd tone. Whereas the 4 syllable example gives you the canonical shapes of all 4 full tones of Mandarin. Contact Basemetal   here  10:09, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you all ! So, I will probably use the excellent example 妈骂麻马. I just wonder whether there are other examples. HOOTmag (talk) 10:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I would think there are numerous possibilities, except that some of them will be quite nonsensical. Here are two more: "国过果锅" (Guó guò guǒ guō, "The nation crosses the fruit pan"), and "蛱驾假家" (Jiá jià jiǎ jiā, "The butterfly drives the fake home"). Perhaps others can think of more sensible examples. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 17:10, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Oops. I thought the OP thought the longer the better. But you're probably right that he meant exactly four chars. Sorry. Contact Basemetal   here  11:30, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

The correct term for the season that spans years end
For the summer/winter that goes from December 2014 to February 2014 which is the correct or most used term:
 * 1) The summer/winter of 2014
 * 2) The summer/winter of 2014-2015
 * 3) The summer/winter of 2015

I know which one we tend to use but I wonder which is the most common/correct. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 17:26, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * For Wikipedia, WP:DATERANGE and WP:SEASON might be helpful.—Wavelength (talk) 17:38, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks I hadn't thought of that. The only thing it has though is that saying winter 1995 is ambiguous. 70.28.245.42 (talk) 22:59, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * WP:SEASON says that saying "winter" is ambiguous because of differences between the southern and northern hemispheres. Even if we know that the northern hemisphere is involved, still "winter 1995" is ambiguous because it might refer to the winter ending in 1995 or to the winter beginning in 1995.  (Likewise, "the turn of the 20th century" could refer to the beginning or the end of the 20th century.)  WP:ENDASH requires the en dash for ranges in Wikipedia articles.  WP:/ indicates that "summer/winter" is better expressed as "summer-winter".  Therefore, the correct form appears to be "The summer-winter of 2014–2015".
 * —Wavelength (talk) 00:46, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * There's also the problem that in some places seasons begin on the first day of the relevant months, and in other places they begin on the solstices and equinoxes. The obvious answer is to simply avoid seasons as any sort of precise indicator of time. Stick to months, or quarters (e.g. first quarter, 2014). HiLo48 (talk) 02:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh, stuff and nonsense. In New York, the winter beginning in 2013 was a very cold one. No ambiguity or endashing or backwards toilet flushing or any othe type of jibber-jabber. μηδείς (talk) 06:05, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * ———"No...backwards toilet flushing or any [other] type of jibber-jabber."———


 * Please tell me that you were joking, Medeis.
 * The volume of water in household, plumbing fixtures remains far too minuscule for Coriolis forces to measurably affect them. If (contrary to popular misconception) you uninstalled a toilet from your residence in New York, and shipped it to Jack of Oz's address, down under, then—after he re-installed it—it would flush exactly the same way as before!


 * Pine (talk) 19:26, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Please learn how to edit properly, you don't add questions when answers have been given hours before, indented as if you had been prior in the converstation. See WP:INDENT μηδείς (talk) 01:30, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Medeis, you've chosen a specific example that works easily, and are using its obviousness as an excuse to be rude to people who have posed, and tried to answer, the general case. What earthly good did that do? AlexTiefling (talk) 11:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * My example works perfectly and fits for any location, but the location has to be specified. That's not my fault, it is OR/Debate to start making up one's own system.  Specify any place in the world and the summer or winter beginning in a certain year and there is no ambiguity at all.  If someone wants to say the winters in Nome last 9 months, with a brief but intense growing period that's fine too.  It's specified and placed in context. All we have discovered here is the 8th grade lesson that not being specific enough out of context leads to jibber-jabber, and anything else is debate. μηδείς (talk) 16:56, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Although, in retrospect, it does seem a tad boreocentric, I distinctly remember that GamePro® magazine—back in the 1980s—often used season names to indicate when the games they reviewed would start to appear on retail shelves.

How did they avoid ambiguity? Simple!

They referred to games scheduled for release on March, April or May as "available Spring 19XX," those scheduled for release on June, July, or August as "available Summer 19XX," those scheduled for release on September, October, or November as "available Fall 19XX," those scheduled for release on December as "available Winter 19XX," and those scheduled for release on January or February as "available First Quarter 19XX."

Pine (talk) 06:13, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Can't imagine our Manual of Style ever supporting that approach. HiLo48 (talk) 16:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

, although the question came out of something I was trying to clarify on Wikipedia I wasn't really looking to write summer-winter anywhere. It was more an indication that in the northern hemisphere winter is coming and in the southern summer is approaching. I was curious if people in different hemispheres used one term over the other. I can't remember the article but it was using the 3rd example and had caused some confusion. , you have highlighted the problem with "the winter beginning in 2013". I don't know when winter starts in New York so I can guess that you mean December 2013, based on the Wikipedia definition of summer and winter, but you might have meant January 2013. Anyway the one that we tend to use, locally, is the first example but we should be using the second. Who ever heard of winter that only lasts for three months. In general winter starts in October and lasts until May with occasional returns in June. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 12:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, User:CambridgeBayWeather, I seem to have missed your ping. In the US, the seasons start officially on the equinoxes and solstices, on or about the 21st of March, June, September and December.  In the part of the 48 that gets snow, you will usually hear Memorial day (May 31) and Labour Day (the first Monday in September) as three-day weekends are considered the "unofficial" beginning and end of Summer. Meanwhile, Mar-May are called the spring months, although March 20th is officially still winter, same with Summer months Jun-Aug, Fall months, Sep-Nov, and Winter months, Dec-Feb.


 * Given it snew last night, I am declaring Winter to have begun (five weeks early) where I live. Note my system also fits with wet-and-dry season places. One can be perfectly clear saying the wet season beginning in 2013 in the Kalahari had record rainfalls, or whatever matters as long as your specify the place and starting year. μηδείς (talk) 19:45, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Ha, who ever heard of winter that lasted a full three months? As a recent immigrant to TX, it feels like we have four seasons here: "summer" (Feb-May), "inferno" (June-August), "second summer" (Sept-Nov), "Cambridge Bay summer" (Dec-Jan) -- the point taken, seasons are very different around the world, and we shouldn't expect readers to know when they start in any given region. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:56, 11 November 2014 (UTC) (I can't find a site that will compare our climates specifically, but "winter" in Austin, TX is the same as "summer" in Anchorage, AK )


 * Seasons on Mars are described at http://www.planetary.org/explore/space-topics/mars/mars-calendar.html.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 19:08, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The winter average daily high temperature in Austin may be similar to the summer average daily high in Anchorage, but Austin's average winter lows are 10 degrees F lower than Anchorage's average summer lows. Also, because Austin is well inland and exposed mainly to air masses from the interior during winter, its weather fluctuates much more around the average than does the weather of Anchorage, whose seaside location stabilizes temperatures.  As a result, occasional brief snow and freezing temperatures are not unusual in Austin during winter, while they are rare and almost unknown in Anchorage during July and August. But the point is well taken that winter and summer mean different things to different people. Marco polo (talk) 20:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Glad to see someone checking my refs! Not bad for a quick guess though, eh? It would be neat to see a climate database that could highlight the places that share similar climates at different times of year... SemanticMantis (talk) 15:56, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The original question contains a typo ... am I correct? Or am I totally missing something here?  The original question states: "For the summer/winter that goes from December 2014 to February 2014 which is the correct or most used term:".  Am I correct to assume that the second mention of "2014" is actually a typo for "2015"?  I had assumed so, as I read this thread.  But, I was surprised that no one mentioned it at all.  Which seemed quite odd, given that we are discussing the precision of very specific dates (or, at least, months).    Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:01, 16 November 2014 (UTC)