Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 November 12

= November 12 =

Do Christian names or Baptismal names have to be of European origin?
In other words, are there non-European Christian or Baptismal names? Or is the idea of a Christian name really an aspect of European Christianity? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 05:40, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * No, they are 'supposed' (at least for Catholics) to be the names of saints or from the Bible. Almost all Old Testament names except of enemies are either Hebrew or Aramaic, in either sense broadly "Jewish".  New Testament names are mostly Greek or Greek adaptations of Aramaic names.  Of these, only the Greek and Roman names like Peter and Mark can be considered "European" although the concept itself is anachronistic.  Names like John and Joseph are ultimately Semitic/Jewish, hence Middle Eastern, hence Asian. There's a lot of leeway today, to the point that among Catholics it is only the confirmation name that has to be "Christian".  Names like Keith and Colleen are perfectly cromulent so far as baptism is concerned. Regarding confirmation, at newadvent.org, "The custom of giving a new name to the candidate is not obligatory; but it has the sanction of several synodal decrees during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. The Fifth Council of Milan, under St. Charles Borromeo, insisted that a candidate whose name was "vile, ridiculous, or quite unbecoming for a Christian" should receive another at Confirmation" (cf. Martène)." μηδείς (talk) 06:15, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * All the old testament names may indeed be of Greek/Aramaic origin, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find people who don't consider John and Joseph European. I you were to use a form closer to the original, say Ioseph, things would be different.
 * Sort of hard to find people who don't think mosquitoes or scorpions are bugs, too. Many don't know how mirrors work. But Joseph (given name) doesn't mention Europe and John (given name) explains the origin before saying it was big in Anglo Europe. Wikipedia should be common knowledge, as the first Google result for everything. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:52, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You can get away with not using a "Christian" name for confirmation - everyone else picked a new name, but I used my own regular name. I tried to get out of it entirely, but couldn't, so that was the only kind of act of rebellion I could think of as a 13-year-old. It is at least Biblical though, so no one really noticed... Adam Bishop (talk) 15:22, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Even sticking to canonized RC saints, there are some with names that are neither European nor Aramaic/Hebrew, such as Saint Zhang Dapeng and Saint Kizito. And I don't think Protestants have any rules on what names can be given at baptism. (And apparently there is a Saint Keith.) —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:07, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Angr, thanks. That's what I was looking for. Names that don't come from an European language or Aramaic/Hebrew language. 71.79.234.132 (talk) 13:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * References are nice things. Here is reference which cites Roman Catholic Canon itself, specifically Canon Law #855.  It says the only rule is that the given name should "not be foreign to Christian sentiment", and notes that it only contains general ideas for names to NOT give your children, but does not prescribe any specific name.  That is, there is no "approved" list of names that you have to choose from, rather there are principles you should follow, and the principle says "Don't name your kid something that is against Christian principles."  Naming your child "Killer" as an official name would probably be frowned upon, but there's no closed set of names you have to choose from.  I hope that helps.  -- Jayron  32  17:29, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you missed my reference to and quote of the Catholic Encyclopedia since I didn't link the url. μηδείς (talk) 02:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The Anglican Church (according to this potentially outdated book) also have Christian names, though they're given at baptism, and it pretty much only restricts "wanton, ridiculous, or fantastical names."
 * Other Protestants might cite Galatians 3:28 as a reason to view names pragmatically, while probably still accepting a name change (thanks to Paul) as long as it's sincere and not going to change every two months after getting baptized at the next church on the street.  A few Protestants who are more ethnocentric or nationalist might try to appeal to some undefined ("but not Catholic!") tradition of "Christian" names, even if they already have members named after the Roman war god, the Greco-Roman god of good parties, the king of the Aelfar (i.e. (Freyr), a naiad, the Roman moon goddess, or Odin's great-great-great-grandkid.  In my experience, however, any protestant church actually willing to accept someone with a foreign name as a member would not actually require any sort of name change.
 * I've met some Chinese protestants who took on Christian names anyway for the two-fold purpose of tradition and the more practical benefit that westerners are less likely to completely screw up the pronunciation. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I can't imagine that if Catholics are "supposed" to be named after saints, that this has historically been adhered to much. When England was a Catholic country, we had kings called William, Edward, Richard and Henry; none of which seem to fit the criterion, and Pope Adrian I seems to have been named after either a former god-emperor or a river in Italy. Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, if it ever was a custom, it seems to have been a custom particularly honored in the breach. There were popes called Julius, Alexander, Sixtus, etc. There were Cesars (Cesare Borgia), Hercules (Ercole d'Este). All the kings of France called Louis: the first Saint Louis, was, as far as I know, the 9th king of France of that name (is he still a saint?). So those first nine surely were not named after saints. Who ever invented that tale? Maybe it was the case that the Church would have like this to happen (although with those popes it doesn't look like they were following their own advice) but I don't think this could ever have been a requirement of canon law. What is true is that in the French or Belgian colonies, in the 19th c., when the priests had their way, they would always try to impose such names on the poor kids they were in charge of (orphans, for example). This gave rise to first names such as "Toussaint". Not a saint's name but a feast name. Maybe that was also something they did in European orphanages in Catholic countries. Contact Basemetal here 11:25, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sure there has never been an official rule on this, but it's the sort of thing (called tradition, if you want to read more about it) where people develop the idea independent of any rule-making body. They just sort of collectively arrive at the practice.  People have often named their children after historical figures they wish to honor.  The devoutly religious would not be seen as weird for wanting to name their children after other devoutly religious people.  I don't know why that is seen as an unlikely thing to occur naturally, or why it wouldn't have happened unless some authority passed a law about it.  Sometime, people do things all on their own, without being forced to.  -- Jayron  32  12:58, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * And then there's the Protestants: I've mentioned before Praise-God Barebone and his son, If-Jesus-Christ-Had-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned Barebon. Alansplodge (talk) 14:35, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I may be mistaken, but Talulah Does The Hula From Hawaii is hardly a name of a saint. Nor is No 16 Bus Shelter. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 13:55, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Origins of "even" used ironically for correction
See Wiktionary's fourth definition of "even" as an adverb:
 * "(ironic) Signalling a correction of one's previous utterance. rather
 * My favorite actor is Jack Nicklaus. Jack Nicholson, even."

When and where, approximately, did this use originate? Thank you in advance! ---Sluzzelin talk  18:13, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * That usage is alien to me (educated middle-class 50-something American who's lived in both coasts and the Midwest). Marco polo (talk) 19:42, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * It's not exactly the same usage, but Snagglepuss (1959-) often used to add "even" to the ends of his sentences for emphasis - see the article for some examples. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 19:43, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you, both! Marco: I (non-native speaker but long-time anglophile including americanophile) first consciously encountered this in (ahem) chat-rooms of my early internet days (late 1990s). Andrew: I checked out some Snagglepuss examples, he does use them emphatically and in a way that could be seen as "rather" - you might be on to what helped this spread. (I have also always loved American cartoons, but somehow never saw Snagglepuss).  ---Sluzzelin  talk  21:03, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Sluzzelin exits stage left, to the Place of Shame. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:03, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Ha ha, you pretentious   ...    even!' ---Sluzzelin  talk  22:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Remembering Snagglepuss reminds me of Dupont et Dupond, who often amplify each other's remarks with Je dirais même plus: ("I'd say even more:") [exactly the same thing]. —Tamfang (talk) 07:25, 15 November 2014 (UTC)


 * That's a strange use of "even". I've never heard it in the sense of "I meant B, not A." The way Snagglepuss uses "even" is to re-emphasize something he just said. "It's chilly outside. Cold, even." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:06, 15 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, it's supposed to be self-irony (obviously my B is not just emphasizing my A; I was plain wrong when I said A). Here's how you could see parallels in Snagglepuss's and Dupont/d's use of "even" and the one I'm asking about: The second statement, the one followed by "even", is supposed to be improved or more precise ... even when it isn't - there is irony in the cartoon versions too, particularly in the case of Dupont and Dupond, as pointed out by Tamfang. Thanks for that! Unlike Snagglepuss, Tintin is something I grew up with, and that might explain why this particular use of "even" wasn't hard to understand when I first saw it, even if it did strike me as novel. ---Sluzzelin talk  11:32, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The word "even" means level or equal. Maybe someone stretched the sense of "exactly" to mean "to be exact". As in "Nicklaus, or to be exact, Nicholson." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:43, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Question about omitting articles in Swedish
I recently watched a Swedish documentary about pony play on YouTube. In the video, the reporter asked Vem vill vara häst? Notice the absence of an article. I understood that this usage means "Who wants to act/play in the submissive role as a horse?" If the reporter had asked Vem vill vara en häst?, it would have meant she had asked who wants to literally be a real-life horse. Is this correct? J I P &#124; Talk 19:29, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Windjammer
I find that the word "windjammer" has four meanings (see ): [Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary]
 * wind·jam·mer, n. Informal.
 * 1. (formerly) a merchant ship propelled by sails.
 * 2. any large sailing ship.
 * 3. a member of its crew.
 * 4. Older Slang. a long-winded person; a great talker.

Which of these meanings came first: the talker, the jacket (not listed), the crew-member or the vessel? In 1915 it is called an American creation (see ). What is meant by "jam"? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 22:55, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Astoundingly, the word is not in the OED (2nd ed.), though it may be in their online edition, which I don't have access to. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary dates the sailing-ship sense to 1899, and the earliest citation for the big-talker sense in the Dictionary of American Regional English is 1887, so the senses seem to be roughly contemporaneous, with (perhaps) the "windbag" sense slightly preceding. Deor (talk) 23:17, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The OED entry is under the wind headword, with four meanings and cites from 1880 onwards (the vessel coming first second).   D b f i r s   23:44, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * In the OED Online, the entry for wind is dated 1926 and marked as "not fully updated". The four senses of windjammer are given as follows, only I'm correcting a confusing typo in one of them: "(a) U.S. a bugler, bandsman;  (b) a sailing-vessel (obs. exc. Hist.);  (c) U.S. a rumour-monger, a loquacious person;  (d) = windcheater n.(b) above."  The quotations are not listed separtely by sense but it's pretty clear that they relate to these four senses as follows:
 * (a), the bugler — 1880, 1931, 1942
 * (b), the ship — 1892, 1899, 1909
 * (c), the talker — 1893, 1917
 * (d), the jacket — 1930, 1932, 1976
 * --174.88.134.249 (talk) 05:10, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've corrected my reply above since I agree that the 1880 cite is most likely the bugler. The 1886 cite for windjamming refers to sailing.   D b f i r s   07:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The Online Merriam-Webster cites 1880 as the first usage for the sailing ship definition. -- Jayron  32  23:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 174.88.134.249 claims that this cite is for the bugler sense, and I'm inclined to agree, though I initially assumed the same as the M-W dictionary.   D b f i r s   15:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The usual explanation is that jammer is cognate with yammer -to whine/wail/lament- from the sound of the wind in the rigging, but out windjammer article dismisses that as folk etymology.--catslash (talk) 23:55, 12 November 2014 (UTC)