Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 November 25

= November 25 =

trebouxiophyceae
How do you pronounce trebouxiophyceae?

Thanks.

Aaadddaaammm (talk) 01:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Very rarely. —Tamfang (talk) 08:39, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The -phyceae part would commonly be prounounced as /ˈfaɪʃiː/. For the trebouxio- part you can makes something up, who's gonna be able to tell? How does /treɪˈbʊksiːoʊ/ sound? Which would give /treɪˌbʊksiːoʊˈfaɪʃiː/. Does this sound reasonable? Incidentally, is Treboux French? What would be the pronunciation of that be in English? Contact Basemetal   here  11:35, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * There's also the genus Trebouxia. If that has a standard pronunciation then you would have to combine it with the standard pronunciation of -phyceae. If not, make sure you make up consistent pronunciations for Trebouxia and Trebouxiophyceae. Contact Basemetal   here  12:34, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * You can also try watching some YouTube videos having to do with green algae (without any guarantee of course that whoever pronounces the word knows and uses a "standard" pronunciation, assuming for a moment one exists). But it has, at least, to be a human voice. When, as in this video it's a synthesized voice reading something from WP, it is worthless. And note that the pronunciations of Trebouxia and Trebouxiophyceae are completely unintelligible anyway. Contact Basemetal   here  12:44, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * This is what Google Translate gives: trebouxia and trebouxiophyceae. But this is just if you wanna have a laugh. Contact Basemetal   here  12:52, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth the standard internet spelling in Russian for Trebouxia is "Требуксия" ("Trebuksiya").--Cam (talk) 14:11, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Spaces before units; American vs English usage
So this is something I've been noticing recently. As we all (should!) know, with some exceptions, there should be a space between a unit and the number. So that would be 12 m/s, not 12m/s (sic). However, I've noticed that in most cases where I see the incorrect usage, it is in American texts. Is this a language-specific American vs English difference? Or is the correct usage not particularly emphasised in teaching in the US etc? Any thoughts? Cheers! 131.251.254.81 (talk) 12:55, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as correct English. The sooner you accept that, the happier your life will become. Matt Deres (talk) 14:21, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, in general I agree, but this is an area where internationally accepted rules actually exist and make sense. Hence my question, are they not taught? 131.251.254.81 (talk) 14:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Matt Deres's reply is distinctly unhelpful. The OP is absolutely correct, there is an internationally accepted regulation on this - see Guide for the Use of the International System of Units (pdf), para 7.2.  The US has certainly not derogated from the International System of Units, so it is not the case that this is a specific AmEng/BrEng difference.  Therefore, if you see it written without a space, it's just a mistake. --Viennese Waltz 14:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * To answer the question about what is taught in the United States, the content and quality of teaching varies widely in the United States, as does the competence of teachers. Correct use of spacing and punctuation is a low priority in many classrooms, and in some cases the teachers themselves may not have a solid command of the relevant rules. So it is not surprising that some Americans make mistakes in this area. Marco polo (talk) 15:13, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * And with respect to Wikipedia, I've seen unspaced versions of numerals + abbreviated units being used by British, by American, and (perhaps most frequently) by Indian users. Deor (talk) 15:38, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, the BBC consistently gets this wrong as well. I've complained about this before, pointing out the very document quoted further up, and it got dismissed as 'we're a large organisation, typos will happen' (paraphrased). Despise the fact that I've actually never seen it correctly, and it's thus most likely described wrongly in their style guides. Sigh.... Fgf10 (talk) 17:22, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You really should make an appointment with the NHS to get that wheeze looked into. μηδείς (talk) 04:01, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Just to help future searches, this is not so much a question of language but writing style - in this case, we have the NIST standards linked above, but each publisher will also have their own style guide. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

American proofreaders and copy editors also put a space between a number and a unit of measurement. Tech writers, however, can't be bothered with such trivial matters as consistency or readability. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

There are several points to be made: --65.94.50.4 (talk) 04:12, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The International System of Units (the SI, the modern metric system) does fall under international standards. This is the standard for the SI itself; specifically, it is the US edition, published by the NIST. It specifies how you form the symbol for a unit (e.g. m/s&sup2; and not m/s/s), but does not specify whether you separate it from the number.
 * National standards bodies, such as the NIST in the US, may provide their own supplementary documents for use with international standards. The document that Viennese Waltz cites says what he says it does, but it's one of these, an NIST publication and not an international standard.
 * I've heard of an international standard that may address similar issues (I think it's ISO 31), but have never had a professional need to pay for a copy, and I don't think it's available freely online. If I'm wrong then hopefully someone will correct me.
 * All of the above applies only to SI units. People also vary in how they write non-SI units in these contexts (is 12 feet "12 ft.", "12 ft", or "12ft", or for that matter "12'"?) and international standards don't address the usage of units that aren't subject to the standard.  Of course, things like style guides do.
 * In my experience American English speakers are far more likely to use a space between the number and the unit symbol/abbreviation than British English speakers are. There is one exception and that is electrical units, which are very commonly written without a space ("120V") even in American usage

Pronunciation
Can someone pronounce this for me please: 2,215,200,000.00. Thanks in advance. -- (Russell.mo (talk) 15:18, 25 November 2014 (UTC))
 * In America it would be two billion, two-hundred fifteen million, two-hundred thousand. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:54, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * There are a few issues. On the short scale, it is correct to say the number is "over two billion. On the long scale, however, that quote is not correct. In the USA we use the short scale, and I would say "Two billion, two-hundred fifteen million, two hundred thousand" - but we don't usually need so much precision, and even in something like an economics or scientific report most people would write/say "Two point two billion". Does that help? SemanticMantis (talk) 15:58, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it does. I didn't know. Thanks guys. -- (Russell.mo (talk) 16:18, 25 November 2014 (UTC))


 * I call hyphen abuse. For example, 225,000 should be written "two hundred twenty-five thousand". Clarityfiend (talk) 19:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The pronunciation is unaffected. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You're a punctuation anarchist. Admit it. That's the first step on the path to recovery. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:39, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * That's how I was taught to do it, by the anarchists running my elementary school. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * ...and no cents! —Tamfang (talk) 20:09, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see a dollar sign anywhere. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Nor ‘€’, but what's another concise way to pronounce the ".00"? Presumably it's there for a purpose. —Tamfang (talk) 01:58, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, Tamfang. I've seen recent ads for real estate such as "House and land packages selling now for $350,000.00". Not a cent less will be accepted, apparently.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  04:15, 26 November 2014 (UTC)


 * For those who still use the long scale, it's "two thousand, two hundred and fifteen million, two hundred thousand" (point zero zero if you want to stress the accuracy). Note the additional conjunction in British English.    D b f i r s   21:48, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of this before I queried. -- (Russell.mo (talk) 14:45, 26 November 2014 (UTC))


 * The conjunction is also used normally in American English, except by droids. "...Two hundred and fifteen million...". μηδείς (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Few people in Britain still use the long scale (and are likely to be misunderstood if they do). But pretty well everybody uses "and" after "hundred". I am surprised at Medeis' last remark, because I have often encountered number written without the "and" in American sources. Perhaps I just fail to notice the cases when they use the form that I would. --ColinFine (talk) 00:48, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Colin is correct that we are dying out, ever since Harold Wilson decided to use the American billion, but in this particular example, my long scale usage is less likely to be misunderstood, especially by other Europeans. I share Colin's surprise that so many Americans use "and".  I'll have to look out for it because I've never noticed it.    D b f i r s   21:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I am not aware that I made a categorical statement either way, but I think the andful expression's more common in the US. μηδείς (talk) 03:59, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Not using "and" in that situation is one of those "rules" English teachers invented so they could have a job telling you that the language you've spoken your whole life is wrong. No one in America, except those English teachers (and even then ONLY in the context of English class) ever says the number without the "and".  There's lots of situations like that. -- Jayron  32  04:34, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Using the "and" is colloquial, but I typically don't write or say it that way, except for the "and xx cents" part. My schooling was in the Midwest. A simple example: 2001: A Space Odyssey. At the time, I usually heard it as "two-thousand one". A reasonably good sized minority said "two-thousand and one", and a very few said "twenty-oh-one". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:41, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Difference in pronunciation between /ð/ /θ/ and /d/ /v/
Hi there,

I would like to know what are the differences in the manner of pronunciation between /ð/ /θ/ and /d/ /v/.

Thank you! Exx8 (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Here are two IPA resources that have linked audio samples: . SemanticMantis (talk) 15:48, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I just realized I interpreted your question as being about differences in the sound. But the "manner of pronunciation" might also mean how the mouth is shaped and air is moved. If that's what you are interested in my links above won't help much. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The first two: you place the tip of your tongue against the back side of your two or four front teeth and push the air trough the formed opening between the tongue and the teeth. If you do use your voice you'll get voiced /ð/, if you do not - you'll get its voiceless counterpart /θ/.
 * For /d/: you put the tip of your tongue against alveolar ridge (the protuberance behind of your teeth), and the simultaneously push the air and abruptly take away the tip from the ridge using your voice.
 * For /v/: you place your lower lip against the upper teeth ridge then push the air using you voice.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I've tried to do what you told me, and actually, and the result is little bit bizarre: http://picosong.com/4j6s/ Exx8 (talk) 14:38, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It sounds like you are making a sibilant /s/ to me. Your tongue has to start barely touching the teeth and then fall through the vowel to say "the" in USA English (/ðƏ/) I seem to recall that /ð/ is much more common in English (compared to many other languages), and many people have trouble making it sound like the sound made by native English speakers. For example German-accented English is often written with 'zee' as a phonetic spelling of 'the', 'zat' for 'that', etc. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:35, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * okay, I've tried to pronounce D with lifted tongue which its tip touching the edge of my teeth. that is the result : http://picosong.com/4gCQ/, what do you think?Exx8 (talk) 00:28, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
 * that sounds like /d/ to me, with just a hint of aspiration. So it seems to me that you are trying to make a /ð/, but are having troubles doing so, is that correct? My (inexpert) description is that for /d/ the bottom/tip of the tongue hits the alveolar ridge but for /ð/ the top of the tongue barely brushes the bottom of the upper teeth. This thread is fairly stale by now but my understanding is that this is a common struggle so if you'd like to post a new question on the topic we might be able to find resources about this specific issue. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:01, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * We still do not know what purpose the topic-starter has had in mind when asking. If it's his/er homework for phonetics classes then we should answer one way, if s/he asks about how to pronounce properly English then we should answer in another way. I've tried to answer the latter as I could, if it's not enough then the TS must try another sources which are plenty in the net. Also we do not know the native language of the TS. I'd say /d/ & /v/ are simply "European" "d" & "v", but in English you should bend the tip of the tongue a little backward to the alveolar ridge. But it is not too important, it'd be just a foreign accent not affecting word meanings. /θð/ are somewhat more tricky, but I'd describe them as "European" "s" & "z" with lisp (that is the speech defect for most European languages).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:24, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Versace (pronunciation of)
how is the Fashion name "Versace" pronounced?


 * In America we tend to say "vehr-SAH-chee", which is probably a very rough approximation of the proper Italian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:15, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * In Inglish or Italiano? Have you not read the article? μηδείς (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

French French?
I know of different dialects of languages. In verygeneral terms, English spoken in the U.S. is called American English, while in the U.K. it is British English, etc. (Yes, there are more specific terms, but forget that for this discussion. When it comes to French, however, I get confused. French spoken in Canada is Canadian French, but what of the language spoken in France? French French?  → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 22:10, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Our articles French language and Dialects of the French language call what I believe your're referring to "Metropolitan French", though that's not the only dialect spoken in France. Deor (talk) 22:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The Parisian standard is also called francien (of Francie, an archaic name for Île-de-France). —Tamfang (talk) 02:00, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Hasn't been called that for a few hundred years. Contact Basemetal   here  02:13, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing you mean Francie, rather than that I'm centuries behind the news about francien. —Tamfang (talk) 06:43, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Metropolitan French is fine. If you just want to differ from Canadian French, it doesn't matter which French French dialect you talk about. --2.245.173.139 (talk) 05:00, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * We have a very short article on French of France interwikilinking to the longer article Français de France on French Wikipedia. Unlike Standard French it refers to spoken (including informal) language. I suppose the contrastive focus reduplication "French French" would be understandable when actually contrasted ("no, I don't mean Belgian French, I mean French French!") ---Sluzzelin talk  02:13, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * In the same sort of context I've heard English English. Contact Basemetal   here  02:15, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Or "German German"! Let me add that the French article on français de France also gives "français métropolitain" (see Deor) and "français hexagonal" as varieties. ---Sluzzelin talk  02:21, 26 November 2014 (UTC)