Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 September 15

= September 15 =

Czech:English translator/content editor
Stumbled across the article Jankovský of Vlašim, which appears to be a poor translation from Czech. How would one find an active content editor who speaks Czech that might tidy this up? --Dweller (talk) 13:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * See Category:User cs.—Wavelength (talk) 14:39, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * See Category:Wikipedians who participate in Pages needing translation into English.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 14:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thanks. --Dweller (talk) 14:53, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Word-ending aversions
I might be imagining, but it seems that in English you won't find words that end with an "ah" vowel sound (like the 'o' in 'hot'), even words ending in 'a' are pronounced "uh" (like NASA, pizza). In modern Hebrew many, many words end with the "ah" sound.

[Curiously, in Hebrew there are two vowels patach that makes an "ah" sound, and kumatz that makes an "uh" sound, although in modern Hebrew they have merged into the "ah" sound. Most examples of Hebrew words that end in "ah" are really spelled with a "kumatz" meaning that their original pronunciation was not "ah" and words that truly end in "ah" are pretty scarce.]

I've noticed this because my children are bi-lingual English and Hebrew (I speak to them in English) and when they say a word in Hebrew to me in modern Hebrew that ends with an "ah" they change the pronunciation to "uh" - seemingly because they never hear an "ah" ending from me (even the Hebrew I say to them is more liturgal/biblical, pronouncing the "kumatz" as an "uh").

Am I missing some words, or is this a common feature of some languages? אפונה (talk) 17:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * אפונה -- Traditionally in modern English, the "short" or "checked" vowels [ɛ], [æ], [ʊ], [ʌ], and [ɒ] were only found in syllables pronounced with some degree of stress, and were not found at the end of a word or directly before another vowel (with very limited exceptions for certain interjections or onomatopoeia, such as imitating the sound made by sheep). Originally [ɪ] was an exception to this (and still is in many British dialects), but in some dialects [ɪ] before a vowel or at the end of a word has been changed to [i]/[iː], while unstressed [ɪ] in other positions has become [ɨ] and/or [ə], so that [ɪ] is no longer an exception in such dialects.  Of course, [ɑː] and [ɔː] were always allowed to occur at the end of a word, and in some dialects [ɔː] and [ɒ] have now merged... AnonMoos (talk) 17:56, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, the Hebrew קמץ diacritic (a little "T" looking symbol under a Hebrew letter) represents two historical sounds in early/Biblical Hebrew, a long [ā] sound and a short [o] sound, which are still pronounced differently in some "Sephardi" traditions of recitation of Biblical Hebrew, and most of the time also in modern Israeli Hebrew (which was influenced by Ashkenazi traditions in the pronunciation of the consonants and Sephardi traditions in pronunciation of the vowels). A קמץ diacritic indicating a word-final vowel was always [ā], not [o]... AnonMoos (talk) 18:07, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply! "a long [ā] sound"... like 'a' in 'day'? I've never, ever, heard anyone pronounce it that way. That would be closest to a צירה. In Ashkenazi pronunciation the קמץ is pronounced like the 'u' in 'cut', and in modern Hebrew & Sephardi like the 'o' in 'cop'. אפונה (talk) 19:39, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * No. AnonMoos means something like what you're writing "ah". (This is why serious discussion of phonetics is nearly impossible without using IPA or something similar. You nearly lost me at the beginning, because in no British dialect is the vowel in "hot" the least bit like "ah": it's much more like kamatz katon. Ditto "cop" at the end of what you wrote). --ColinFine (talk) 21:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

אפונה -- Go to International Phonetic Alphabet and Help:IPA for English for a quick summary on phonetic symbols (though "ā" in my comment above was a historical linguistics convention for what would be [ɑː] and/or [aː] in stricter IPA). AnonMoos (talk) 01:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I actually looked up the ā sound, but Wikipedia gives it as "eɪ" like the 'a' in base (see United States dictionary transcription. I saw one other page like this but can't bother to find it.) אפונה (talk) 05:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but "United States dictionary transcriptions" is the wrong place -- those symbols are intended for English-speakers who are not linguists, while the International Phonetic alphabet (and related symbols, such as vowels with macrons in historical linguistics) are intended to be used by speakers of a number of languages with relevant expertise... AnonMoos (talk) 06:50, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * but you said that [ā] is not IPA (and I can't find it there either) rather an outdated system - which system uses [ā] for [ɑː]? And how do you pronounce [aː] - I still can't find it. Thanks if you can help me. אפונה (talk) 17:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, dude, but if you're going to advance beyond the most basic introductory level in this area, then you're going to have to get used to the idea that sometimes the same symbol can have different meanings in different context. The a-with-macron symbol "ā" is not used to indicate IPA [eɪ] when linguists write for other linguists, nor by non-English speakers.  Another thing is that when historical linguists do reconstructions of sound systems and sound changes, they don't necessarily always work in terms of strict IPA.  In this context, "ā" is a convenient symbol to use to write a sound which could be equivalent to [ɑː] and/or [aː], when the difference between the two doesn't matter much for the historical reconstruction in question... AnonMoos (talk) 00:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It would be helpful if you would answer the question... how would I learn anything if you can't tell me the name of the system that uses [ā] as such so I could learn more about it (and how to pronounce [aː]) אפונה (talk) 04:35, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Use of "ā" to indicate [ɑː] and/or [aː] is not necessarily part of any formally-defined "system"; however, it is an extremely prevalent practice among historical linguists when they are not using strict IPA. However, you can look at Americanist phonetic notation for partial documentation of similar practices (note: Americanist phonetic notation is vastly different from "United States dictionary transcriptions" -- historical linguists never use United States dictionary transcriptions).  You may consider linguistic symbols to be pretentious and hoity-toity, but they're vastly superior to fumbling around with things like "uh", "ah", and "o as in cop"... AnonMoos (talk) 05:01, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Early or Biblical Hebrew had a standard "5×2" vowel system like Classical Latin, with both short and long phonemes for each of the basic [a], [e], [i], [o], and [u] vowels (ignoring reduced vowels). In traditions leading to Sephardi (and modern Israeli Hebrew) pronunciations, the long-short vowel contrast collapsed (ceased to be distinctive) so there were now 5 vowel phonemes instead of 10, while in traditions leading to Ashkenazi pronunciations, there was a more complex pattern of mergers, so that 10 vowel phonemes became 7:

In actual Yiddish the vowels [e],[o] shown in the "Ashkenazi" column of the table above have become diphthongs whose pronunciation varies by dialect...

When you say that קמץ in modern Israeli is pronounced like the "o" in English "cop" I don't really know what you're trying to say, because Tiberian קמץ has two different pronunciations in modern Israeli, while the vowel of "cop" has quite a range of variant pronunciations across different dialects of English (due to Cot-caught merger). AnonMoos (talk) 01:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I really do need to memorize the IPA symbols. I was just too lazy to find the right symbols, :-(. The complaint about "cop" was to be expected. I actually ran a few words through my head to avoid the "caught" merger and British pronunciation, but couldn't think of any right away. אפונה (talk) 05:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I have heard [ɑː] for a קמץ, but in my experience, [ʌ] like the "u" in "cup" is more common. I can't figure out what [aː] is. It's interesting to see the difference between the חיריק מלא and חסר given as ī and i - careful Ashkenazi pronunciation uses i when it is מלא (with a יוד) and ɪ when חסר (lacking the יוד), but in practice many don't know the difference and always use "i" like you wrote.


 * I still don't know what you mean when you refer to קמץ in the context of modern Israeli Hebrew (since קמץ has two pronunciations there), and modern Israeli Hebrew does not have distinctive vowel length contrasts (i.e. separate short and long vowel phonemes). Uriel Weinreich's Yiddish dictionary doesn't indicate any [i]/[I] contrast for Yiddish, and in any case the third column of the table above is not about Yiddish as such, but about early Ashkenazi Biblical recitation traditions which underly the pronunciation of Hebrew words in Yiddish... AnonMoos (talk) 06:50, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The [ɪ]/[i] contrast is in careful Ashkenazi pronunciation, like I wrote before. I had never meant to imply Yiddish pronunciation - where did you see that in my comment? אפונה (talk) 17:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not being clear. I was consistently referring to a regular קצץ not the קמץ קטן - and I've always heard it (and been taught it) as [ʌ], even what I wrote about hearing it as [ɑː] was a mistake - I had only seen it in a footnote of a book.
 * The original questioner may be interested in WP's article on Stress and vowel reduction in English. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * אפונה, see Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 February 13 and my comment made at 19:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC).
 * Aha!, Al di là, Blah Blah Blah, bourgeois, brouhaha, cha-cha-cha, foie gras, hurrah, Kumbaya, mamá, omertà, oo-la-la, Oom-Pah-Pah, papá, patois, schwa, shah, Shangri-La, spa, ta-ta, voilà!
 * —Wavelength (talk) 17:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * English has plenty of monosyllables ending with this sound: ma, pa, spa. In non-rhotic accents, there are more: bar, car, far. There aren't many polysyllabic words with this, though. It seems to me I've heard some Americans pronouncing place names (particularly Africa) with an unreduced vowel, but I may be mistaken. --ColinFine (talk) 09:31, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


 * There are at least three English words ending in /-ɑ/: bra, spa and ska. One might also want to add blah. Khemehekis (talk) 08:33, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Galah. Foie gras is English in a culinary context.  (Some silly people even pronounce "coup de grâce" as "koo de grah".)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  11:36, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Not to mention McGrath. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  11:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Guys
Why are men sometimes referred to as "guys". Where does the word Guy originate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wsccj8 (talk • contribs) 22:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Originally referred to a person of unsavory character, from Guy Fawkes. See .  -- Jayron  32  22:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Guy Fawkes, on the other hand, got the given name Guy because his mother thought he was a son of a bitch. μηδείς (talk) 00:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * If you're going to be disruptive then at least have the courtesy to mark your jokes with &lt;small&gt; . Otherwise they're hard to tell apart from your bad answers. WinterWall (talk) 02:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * You seem to have had no such trouble, WinterWall. Etymology on line gives a full two century hiatus between Guy Fawkes acts and the use of the name first to mean poorly dressed person.  Guy Fawkes was not known for being a poorly dressed person. μηδείς (talk) 20:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Is there a pun or something? —Tamfang (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The answer Jayron references is circular, like saying, "Why are they called pigs? ...Because they are such filthy animals." If "Guy" meant disreputable person, rather than being the Anglo-Norman equivalent of Tom, Dick and Harry, then the question arises, why did Mrs. Fawkes name her son a name that means an unsavory character? μηδείς (talk) 21:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I read the question less literally, as "Where does this usage originate?". —Tamfang (talk) 07:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Another source here (last paragraph). Deor (talk) 22:17, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Guillaume, actuellement. μηδείς (talk) 00:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Medeis, the name Guy has no connection to Guillaume. It is a separate name, cognate with Guido.  Not sure what you are getting at with "son of a bitch".  Marco polo (talk) 00:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Medeis has poorly developed understanding of Poe's law. -- Jayron  32  01:29, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Jayron32, for refraining from obscenity. Can you suggest what the nickname for Guillaume is? μηδείς (talk) 20:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Guillaume is cognate with William, so the question is how (or if) the French would equate to "Will". Googling the subject yields many pages that claim to know, and possible nicknames include Gilen, Guilherme, Guilen, Guillem, Guillerme and... Guy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Surely it's worth mentioning that these days "guys" often refers to females as well. It seems to have happened because polite English doesn't have a word for multiple second persons. (The southern US "y'all" might be an exception.) HiLo48 (talk) 00:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That's covered in Deor's link above. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Also in Wiktionary (usage notes under "Etymology 2"), which specifically mentions the functional similarity of "you guys" and "y'all". Deor (talk) 00:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think the gender-neutral meaning of "you guys" is particularly recent: I remember noticing it in American TV programmes such as The Dick van Dyke Show around 50 years ago. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "You guys" is of long-standing and still of recent usage, but it may be dialectical, not found in the Southern US. See How Y’all, Youse and You Guys Talk. μηδείς (talk) 01:37, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The usage is not dated, but Miriam-Webster recognizes the gender neutral plural form of "guys" as standard. Miriam-Webster is an American dictionary; perhaps the unabridged OED has some information on the earliest such usage.  -- Jayron  32  16:53, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The OED has (under "Draft additions October 2011"), the definition "colloq. As a form of address to a man... Also in pl. as a form of address to a group of people, in later use sometimes a mixed or all-female group." It has a citation from 1930 for "yous guys", but the only example where "guys" is unambiguously addressed to both men and women is from (a spoof article in) Private Eye in 2009. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 18:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It's rather older than that. On the Mary Tyler Moore Show, in the 1970s, Ted Baxter used to walk into the newsroom and great the mixed crew with "Hi, guys." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:41, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I read an anecdote in a popular linguistics book or column (probably in the 90's) about a linguistics professor who insisted to his class that while guy was often used gender neutrally, it was underlyingly marked as masculine. He said the argument ended when a girl in the class, who had been arguing the term as unmarked, said she had even heard a bunch of girls on the train using it.  At that point she admitted the term must be marked or she would have said female guys.  I have no idea what the source for this is, unfortunately, and search terms are unhelpful. μηδείς (talk) 01:29, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I remember reading, in the book Le Ton beau de Marot: In Praise of the Music of Language by Douglas Hofstadter, a discussion of the gender-neutral use of guy. Someone else mentioned the book at http://rexwordpuzzle.blogspot.ca/2008/09/monday-sep-15-2008-sharon-e-petersen.html.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 01:47, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The term "Guys and Gals" seems to have fairly wide currency. I remember being quite surprised when I first heard an American calling some girls "guys" (in the 1980s perhaps?) but it has crossed the pond now. Alansplodge (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Though not now widely used (in a non-ironic way) in the UK, for obvious reasons. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Guy is the French form of a Germanic name, whose modern German form is Veidt; see also Guido. —Tamfang (talk) 07:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)