Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 September 21

= September 21 =

"VIC" in German?
In Petro Tyschtschenko's book, he states "We obviously couldn't use the name VIC in Germany, so it ended up being the VC-20 in the German market, with Germans calling it the Volkscomputer." Why couldn't they use the name "VIC"? Does it sound dirty? The only possible connection I can imagine is that it sounds a bit like "ficken", which means "to fuck" in German. J I P &#124; Talk 06:17, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, that must be it. Proximity to the imperative fick or the noun Fick. Apparently the VIC-20 was first supposed to be called "Vixen", and Michael Tomczyk remembers: "Ironically, as a side note, we originally vetoed the name Vixen because it had undesirable connotations in German [see wichsen], but VIC later turned out to mean something even worse. As a result, the German model was called VC-2O and translated as 'Volks Computer' (the 'People's Computer”)". ---Sluzzelin talk  06:30, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * See also Vicks >> Wicks for a similarly justified change of spelling (though here, the homophone of wichs is guaranteed). ---Sluzzelin talk  07:17, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * V in German has two pronunciations, as [f] and as [v]. In this case most Germans would say [vɪk] or pronounce the three letters individually. Neither variant sounds like "ficken". "wichsen" (to masturbate) is a bit closer, but I don't think it has anything to do with that. It's possible to name you child Victor or Victoria in Germany. Moreover, the nickname Vicky doesn't bother anyone either. --2.246.25.140 (talk) 11:35, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * French-speaking visitors to my (sort of) home town of Melbourne are quite frequently amused by the name of the company "Grocon" headquartered there, pour les reasons obvieux. Pierre AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:54, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * , Vicks is called Wick in Germany, not Wicks, thus avoiding potential homophony with both Fick and wichs. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Absolutely correct, sorry! In Switzerland they used to be Vicks Blau (we did pronounce them "Wichs Blau", usually without a smirk ... and then there's this anyway). -––Sluzzelin talk  18:21, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I just came to think, I actually met Petro in person, so I would have had the opportunity to ask him directly. But at that time I hadn't yet read his book that far. And to User:Shirt58, I know a little French, so what is so amusing about "Grocon"? J I P  &#124; Talk 18:13, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Espèce de gros con !. ---Sluzzelin talk  18:21, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I made a typo, I meant "I only know a little French". But thanks for the answer. J I P  &#124; Talk 18:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That's the G-rated version, Sluzzelin. As WP:RD/L is a family-oriented show, I won't mention what the translation might be after the watershed.--Shirt58 (talk) 10:34, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

@JIP: So you're aware that, in German, the letter v is pronounced /f/ ? VIC doesn't just sound "a little like" fick; it sounds exactly like it. At least I think it does &mdash; my German is not exactly wunderbar, but I think I know enough to make that statement. --Trovatore (talk) 19:10, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, as pointed out by 2.246.25.140, the letter "v" gets pronounced voiceless and voiced . The main rule (as always, there are exceptions), is that initial "v"s are voiced in Fremdwörter (loanwords), but voiceless in "Germanic" words. Not just Viktor and Viktoria, but also Visum, Visite, and Video have a voiced vee. How the average German would intuitively pronounce "Vick" is open for debate of course. The -ick ending can sound Germanic; hard to say, but I've never heard anyone call Vicky Leandros "Ficki". ---Sluzzelin talk  19:29, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, interesting. I didn't know that. --Trovatore (talk) 19:39, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, forget Vicky Leandros. The question was originally about VIC. In this case I agree with 2.246.2.140: The average German probably would intuitively pronounce "VIC" with a voiced "v", because Germanic words don't tend to end in the letter "c". But the people who made the decision to avoid "VIC" in Germany might not have made that assumption. ---Sluzzelin talk  19:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * In the standard orthography  is generally realised as /t͡s/. (This sentence written with Australian question intonation at the end?) . Would any native speaker say as /fit͡s/ or perhaps /fɪt͡s/? Piet (since "Peter" auf Deutsche is usually just "Peter", which is dead trousers) AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:34, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Except as a part of the multigraphs ‹ck›, ‹ch›, ‹sch›, ‹tsch›, ‹zsch›, ‹tzsch› and ‹dsch›, the occurrence of the letter ‹c› is generally restricted to loanwords and a few proper names. In these cases, the ‹c› is /ts/ before a soft vowel (e, i, y, ä/ae, ö/oe), and otherwise it's /k/ - a pattern similar to that in English and in the Romance languages (see Hard and soft C). Even in most Latinate and Greek loanwords the ‹c› has been replaced with ‹k› or ‹z› depending on its pronunciation, e.g. Zirkus instead of Circus. --Theurgist (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Based on this, I imagine most Germans would pronounce "VIC" as either /fik/, making it sound dirty (like fick) or /vik/ like it says. As I'm not a native German speaker I don't know which of these pronunciations is more popular. J I P  &#124; Talk 18:52, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Mostly as explained by 2.246.25.140, whom I assume to be a native speaker: Only very few native speakers would pronounce it with a voiceless f (sounding exactly like "fick"), unless they were being funny/puerile on purpose. Most would either pronounce it the way they'd say "wick" in German, with a voiced v, or they'd say it initial by initial: "Vau I Tse". ---Sluzzelin talk  22:23, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm changing my comment of 16:13, 22 September 2014, by completing the lists of multigraphs and soft vowels, mentioning Greek loanwords too, and adding a link to Hard and soft C. The original version, to which JIP and Sluzzelin responded, can be seen here. --Theurgist (talk) 23:35, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm a native speaker and Sluzzelin's conclusion is what I meant. --2.245.115.194 (talk) 15:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Balloon poster
In the book Falling Upwards, Richard Holmes talks at some length about Félix Nadar, a 19th-century balloonist (among other things) with a strong flair for self-promotion. Nadar's balloon Le Géant was one of the largest ever built and carried a gondola with an open upper deck and a fully enclosed lower deck, as seen in this poster. Holmes uses the poster as an illustration in the book, but does not provide an explanatory caption, and I'm curious about some of the French wording.

First, quadrille isn't in my French-English dictionary, only quadrillage and quadrillé, referring to things that are checkered or ruled into squares. But I remember that Lewis Carroll used the word in English to refer to a dance, and I'm guessing that's the meaning here in French. Second, chardon does not seem to be the name of a person connected with the balloon, but is in the dictionary with the meaning "thistle". So should the words on that part of the poster be read horizontally&mdash;saying that a dance will be held aboard the "thistle balloon", a term referring somehow to its appearance? Or is some other reading correct?

Next, I take the r&#xe8;glement de bord that Nadar will be providing to basically mean that he'll be running things on board; but what's légende doing together with that? In my dictionary the word simply means "legend", both in the mapmaking sense and the myth sense. Is Nadar saying he'll be a guide in the same sense that the legend of a map is a guide to how to use the map, or what?

Finally, the price seems to be 4.50 francs à deux et à quatre mains. "Two and four hands": is that a common way of saying that a couple will be admitted for the same price as a single person?

65.94.51.64 (talk) 08:51, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * No idea what Fr-En dictionary you're using, but see fr:Quadrille (danse). --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  09:59, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The poster is for a piece of sheet music: a quadrille (dance) called "Le Géant" for piano two-hands or four-hands. "Aérostatique Chardon" appears to be the pseudonym of the composer. I'm not sure about the "Légende et reglement de bord" - I think it must be text about the balloon attached to the publication. --ColinFine (talk) 12:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * (after edit conflict, slightly different interpretation) What you posted appears to be the cover of sheet music for a piano composition (for two or four hands), called Le Géant, a "quadrille aérostatique". The movements are appropriately titled (from inflating the balloon, via the arrival of the spectators, to the balloon's departure). Chardon is the composer ("par Chardon" means "by Chardon"), though I couldn't find out anything more about him (not even his first name). Here is the actual music. ---Sluzzelin talk  12:42, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * You're undoubtedly right about the title and the name, (and I see how I misinterpreted it). I thought at first that we were looking at the cover, but I was surprised to see à deux et à quatre mains on the cover, since it would presumably be only one or other of these possibilities inside; that's why I thought it was a poster for the music. --ColinFine (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

My goodness, ballooning music! Thanks, folks, I never thought of that. In particular, the part about règlement de bord (as well as the book context of actual ascensions) seemed to make it clear that this was advertising an activity. Can anyone suggest what that line of the thing actually means? --65.94.51.64 (talk) 03:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * You were very close to the solution on Gallica. In this booklet Nadar inserted "Rules of prodedure aboard the balloon" for the passengers [not sure it is the right translation; Jack of Oz, Sluzzelin or ColinFine, please check] (Le règlement de bord  ) and told the story (Légende) of the balloon building entitled "The Balloon "The Giant"" (Le Ballon "Le Géant" ) — AldoSyrt (talk) 11:00, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Formidable! Merci beaucoup! --65.94.51.64 (talk) 12:48, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

When I finished reading the book, I was surprised to find an additional confirmation of the answer given by Colin and Sluzzelin. It turns out that the reason there wasn't a caption on the illustration was that the captions for this and all other illustrations are located at the back of the book. That's downright weird, especially considering that the book was carefully produced with bibliographic notes at the end while discursive footnotes went on the same page as the related text. I wonder if someone intended the same sort of separation between captions and credits for the illustrations, but got it wrong and the captions ended up where the credits were supposed to be.

Be that as it may, the caption (and credit) hiding on page 363 for the illustration on page 168 reads: " ' Le Géant de NADAR: quadrille aérostatique... par Chardon ' . Sheet music for 'An Airborne Quadrille', piano piece for two or four hands, with words, music and arrangement by Chardon. &copy; Bibliothèque National, Paris". Et alors, c'est ça. --65.94.51.64 (talk) 09:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Tempting fate (three times?)
Could someone take a look at the first three entries in the Moira dab page and do something with them, like merging them with an all encompassing definition perhaps? They all link to the same article! Clarityfiend (talk) 11:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Boldness has been applied. Indeed, I would personally have Moira as a redirect to Moirai and put the dab page at Moira (disambiguation), but this might be better considered on one of the talk pages. Tevildo (talk) 13:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * What I should have asked is whether Moira is used as a singular form of Moirai or whether the Moirai are always referred to as a group or by their individual names. IMO, Moira (given name) is the primary topic, but that's another issue. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:25, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I've taken it to WP:RM, with a fairly strong negative response so far.  Tevildo (talk) 08:06, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

You can tune a piano...
Why do people refer to tuna as "tunafish"? I have never heard anyone say "salmonfish" or "troutfish", for example. → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 17:27, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * But they do say codfish sometimes. There is no consistency, nor necessarily any reason, why sometimes fish are known as "XXXfish" and sometimes just as "XXX".  -- Jayron  32  18:08, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Or for that matter, why a water heater is sometimes called a "hot water heater". Or why a pen is sometimes called an "ink pen". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:40, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I think ink pen is probably useful for speakers with the pin–pen merger. That's speculation though.  I haven't checked whether the use of the term is correlated with the merger. --Trovatore (talk) 19:42, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I've used the phrase "ink pen" on Talk:Arabic to refer to old-style pens whose strokes vary in width depending on angle. It is definitely not because "pen" and "pin" are pronounced the same in my speech (though I do pronounce the names of the letters M and N as [ɪm],[ɪn])... AnonMoos (talk) 21:07, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

We used ink-pen to mean a pen you dipped in ink as opposed to a fountain pen.Hotclaws (talk) 13:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Still, are there any other examples, besides tuna/tunafish and cod/codfish, where both versions are used? Most of the over 100 common fish names ending in "-fish", from alligatorfish to zebrafish, are not called by their de-fished name, and as pointed out by Michael, most fish with a fishless name X (salmon, trout, carp, pike, marlin, etc.) aren't ever called X-fish either. Any other examples besides cod and tuna? ---Sluzzelin talk  20:01, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Not quite the same but there's the salmon trout. (And white fish which is not the same as whitefish). Rmhermen (talk) 20:07, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Gar and Garfish are not necessarily the same thing.. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "Coley (fish)" comes to mind, but I've not seen "Coleyfish" without the space. Tevildo (talk) 20:59, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Jack's example also leads us to the killifish, sold as minnows for bait in the US. μηδείς (talk) 21:02, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I originally read that as "killfish" and thought "that sounds like a dangerous species of fish"... J I P  &#124; Talk 10:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * They are actually quite fun to play with when fishing, and I make sure the survivors get released from the bait bucket after any fishing trip. (We usually get one "bite" per killi, but those may be sandsharks, stargazers, or oyster crackers.) But yes, my eyesight is getting worse and I had to enlarge the screen to make sure I was indeed typing killifish. μηδείς (talk) 22:18, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Guppyfish is not too common, but I have heard it. Otherwise the names are usually of the type flat- gold- dog- cat- sword- white- frog- where the first word does not itself indicate a fish. μηδείς (talk) 20:11, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * A few Google ngrams may be instructive. First off, I'm accustomed to "tuna fish" rather than "tunafish", and a first ngram comparison  suggests that "tunafish" is just a less common variant of "tuna fish", with the same history.  A second ngram  shows that "tuna" becomes extremely common about 1903, the time canned tuna appeared.  This fits my experience that "tuna fish" usually means the canned product rather than the live animal, sashimi, a fillet, or a "tuna steak".  Therefore, I suspect it is because tuna was a relatively unfamiliar fish that suddenly appeared on everyone's grocery shelves in an unfamiliar form, even more so when it showed up as a sandwich on the lunch menu .  This description from 1920  also comments on the quick growth of tuna from something only regionally known to something found all over the US in cans. --Amble (talk) 23:44, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I may be wrong about this, but I don't recall people eating tuna (tinned or otherwise) in London during my 1960s childhood. We had tinned salmon, pilchards and sardines but not tuna. I do remember seeing pictures in schoolbooks of huge tuna being caught in nets in the tropics, but they were referred to as tunny fish and seemed very exotic. Alansplodge (talk) 14:34, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That matches what someone found with this Google ngrams comparison: . Also lines up with the idea that the fixed phrase "tuna fish" became common in the US along with the canned product.  Perhaps the English changed from "tunny" to "tuna" when tuna salad sandwiches first crossed the Atlantic. --Amble (talk) 21:51, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

get carried away
Hi, in the Rise Against article we read:


 * In giving the album 3 out of 5 stars, Johnny Loftus of Allmusic commented "Siren Song of the Counter Culture sometimes gets carried away with its own melodic urgency."

I know "get carried away" means "to be under the influence of something", in this case "melodic urgency" of the album. But the whole sentence does not make sense to me. Would someone tell what does "urgency" mean here and how it has influence on the album?2.179.241.47 (talk) 18:59, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "Carried away" usually means overzealous or overeager, not necessarily under the influence of anything except maybe adrenalin. "Melodic urgency"? That's an odd one. Does Beethoven's Fifth have "melodic urgency"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:14, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * To "get carried away with" means "to be moved to great or unreasoning emotion or enthusiasm by", according Webster's New World Dictionary. The comment suggests that the group's unreasoning enthusiasm for the album's "melodic urgency" has blinded them to other concerns or issues with the music.  What the author means by "melodic urgency" or what issues the group has neglected because of it, though, I can't say without having heard the music.  That's the trouble with writing about music.  It's very difficult to communicate clearly and meaningfully about music the reader hasn't heard.  I might guess that by focusing on an urgent melody the group has neglected things like rhythm or lyrics or instrumentation, or perhaps that the melodies are contrived and tiresome.  Perhaps the author elaborates elsewhere in the review. Marco polo (talk) 20:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * No cites for this, but I have used "carried away with" (and have seen it used) to mean "to pursue to the point that it loses its impact or meaning"; Perhaps the author is implying that, in moderation, their "melodic urgency" (If I had to guess, perhaps referring to a sense of unrest or unease elicited by the melody) would be effective or entertaining but that the end result is too prominent and distracts from the rest of the work, or worse, loses its impact altogether. 75.140.88.172 (talk) 12:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)