Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 September 3

= September 3 =

Does English have an equivalent for the Spanish word, "nacer"?
"Nacer" means "to be born", according to Spanishdict.com. But notice that the English version has the helping verb. "Born" is also the past participle of "to bear". However, when you bear a child, it means that you are going into labor, giving birth to a child. So, I think maybe the verb form of "nativity" would be a good fit, but I don't know the verb form of "nativity". 65.24.105.132 (talk) 01:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The simple answer is, no, English has no such verb. That said, I wouldn't be shocked if someone managed to pop up with some obscure word that Chaucer used once, or some such.  But in terms of any ordinary discourse, no. --Trovatore (talk) 01:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * In certain contexts there are loose equivalents; for example you can say that a new baby "arrives". 86.155.134.106 (talk) 01:55, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * There is one verb form used in English derived from Latin: nascent, present participle of Latin nasci/nascor which is a passive voice deponent verb, but I guess that needn't stop one from creating an active verb form in English. To nasceate? (nauseating) Or, using the analogy of acquiesce, to nasce? ---Sluzzelin talk  08:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It's a strange one in Latin. Not only is it deponent, but the present stem includes the inchoative suffix -(a)sco-, absent from the supine and past participle. The only other verbs I can think of that do that are compounds of -(g)no- "know", so cognosco "I recognise", lit. "I come to know".


 * Nice. Or, going the ascent -> ascend route, one could be said to nascend.  I realise that nascent is an adjective and ascent is a noun, but it's at least a homographically parallel analogy.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:22, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * This is actually not a Spanish/English thing, but a Romance/Germanic languages difference. French also has "naître", Italian has "nascere", all from the Latin verb Sluzzelin mentions (which is also the root of "native" and "nativity"). As Sluzzelin says, that verb is deponent, so it is actually passive ("nascor" means "I am born"), but has no corresponding active forms (there is no *nasco meaning "I bear"). Ultimately, if I am not mistaken, Latin deponent verbs come from an Indo-European "middle voice" (which still existed in ancient Greek but not really in Latin). At least in French, the Latin deponent became a regular active verb, except not quite, because it's one of the few verbs that uses "être" in the past tense (so it is "il est né", and not "*il a né"). I think it works the same in Italian, but I don't know about Spanish...I'll leave it to speakers of those languages to explain.
 * In the Germanic languages, it's actually more like the Latin verb (presumably this also goes back to the Indo-European middle voice). They all use a construction meaning "to be/to become born", i.e. the verb "to be" or "to become" and the past participle of the verb "to bear". In German and Dutch it's "geboren werden/worden", and in Danish it's "blive føde" (and something similar in Norwegian and Swedish).
 * So, actually it's the Spanish verb that is the unusual one here, not English! Adam Bishop (talk) 10:31, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're correct in Italian; "He was born" == lui è nato (not era nato, a common mistake among Anglophones; that would be past perfect, "he had been born"). Of course it's not really "past tense" exactly; the simple past, not used much anymore in the part of Italy I lived in except in formal writing, would be lui nacque.  There seems to be a convention, when writing about people, that you say è nato for an individual who is still alive and nacque for those who don't so much live anymore as the other thing. --Trovatore (talk) 18:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The OED Thesaurus lists several possible actives verbs and phrases: "to come into (also to) the world, rise, breed, arise, kene, birth, wax forth, kindle, seed, come forth, deliver, see the light, born". Some of these are unusual active uses of passive verbs; e.g. the last one is used in phrases like "a borning calf". The only one that I think is actually common is "to come into the world". Lesgles (talk) 17:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

By the way, the general past participle of "to bear" is "borne"; the spelling "born" is only used as a past participle in certain circumstances... AnonMoos (talk) 10:42, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

No. As Trovatore says. However let me provide useful translation examples.--Jondel (talk) 03:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * come into:El día que nazca tu hijo será el más feliz de tu vida. The day your son came into world became the happiest in your life.
 * originate from:De un sueño nació la idea para su libro. From a dream came the idea of his book.--Jondel (talk) 03:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Form of English used in Brazil
Just wondering if there was anything documented on the most common form of English used in Brazil ie whether it is influenced by American or British English. Hack (talk) 07:19, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * In Pronouncing English in Brazil Annick Rivens Mompean writes that both General American and Received Pronunciation are taught, up to the highest level, and "the choice of pronunciation model depends on the schools, on the wishes of the students, and on historical and geographical reasons". The author discusses some of these reasons and also other influences. "In most of the cases, there is a mixture throughout the life of the student who is sometimes exposed to a British variety of English, sometimes to an American variety." She also mentions a school where this mixture is taught deliberately. The article was published in early 1997, over seventeen years ago. I don't know whether American English has become a stronger influence since then, but, for what little it's worth, to me the English spoken by most Brazilian expats I've encountered sounds closer to American English than to British English. ---Sluzzelin talk  08:11, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I live in a part of the United States with a lot of Brazilian immigrants and have known a few Brazilians. In fact, my neighbors are Brazilian.  Of course, this is a biased sample, as Brazilians who learn British English are probably less likely to migrate to the United States, but I have never encountered a single Brazilian with the least trace of British in his or her English. They have all seemed to be aiming for American English.  Marco polo (talk) 18:30, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know specifically about Brazilian Portuguese, but I feel that influence from a person's native language can also affect how British or American they sound when they speak English. 31.51.7.25 (talk) 19:46, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure how this fits in exactly, but I'm used to people from France attempting some kind of British pronunciation, with the result that they'll often say the word law as if it was low. (To be honest, I imagine it probably sounds something like that to Britons as well.) I was astonished once to meet someone from France who had lived in California for many years and spoke (American) English well. Hearing him speak, it was hard to remember that he was French, rather than French Canadian! What I take away from this is that the very different accents French Canadians and French people have in English are primarily the result of the variety of English they're aiming for (perhaps in addition to the fact that French Canadians are typically more fluent). But also, if a person is well integrated in their country of immigration, that will be much more important than the variety of the language they may have learned in school.96.46.203.72 (talk) 04:15, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

"Rubbed" sage ?
I've seen this description on my spice container. It appears to be finely powdered. So, why is sage "rubbed", as opposed to "ground", as my "ground cinnamon" is labelled ? That is, what does "rubbed" mean in this context, which is distinct from "ground" ? US English, if it matters. Thanks, StuRat (talk) 15:37, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * If you type "rubbed sage vs. ground sage" into google, this is a first page hit: . -- Jayron  32  16:19, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * That basically says "ground sage is made by grinding while rubbed sage is made by rubbing". Since I don't understand what the difference is between "grinding" and "rubbing", in the case of spices, this does me no good.  It's just a circular definition.  That's about as useful as a def of "phobomification" which states "any process which results in something becoming phobomificated". StuRat (talk) 17:23, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't know. If someone offered to rub my back, I would find that different than if they offered to grind my back... -- Jayron  32  17:52, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * How exactly do they "rub" it ? Are there two sheets of silicone rubber with the spice between them, moved back and forth relative to each other ? StuRat (talk) 17:19, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Pedant alert: Sage is a herb (Herb, not Erb), not a spice. 82.21.7.184 (talk) 17:27, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * According to this, you rub dried sage between your fingers. Mikenorton (talk) 17:48, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Right, but do they have a bunch of people in the factory all rubbing sage between their fingers ? Somehow I doubt it. StuRat (talk) 17:55, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * OK, this link involves forcing dried sage through a sieve - I think that I can imagine that technique being industrialised, even if I can't find a source for it. Mikenorton (talk) 20:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Does anyone else know definitively ? StuRat (talk) 16:23, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I do; I've seen it done. Ground sage is made by drying it completely, then pulverizing it into powder. Rubbed sage is dried *almost* completely, then rubbed, usually between rollers, and dried further. That's supposed to leave a fluffier, less compact product than ground sage with a slightly different taste. However, a lot of cheap rubbed sage is dried completely before rubbing, which means it's just pulverized into powder by the rollers - you need a bit of moisture in the leaves to prevent pulverization, but it takes judgment (and therefore money) to know exactly when to interrupt the drying process.


 * Also, it's common practice even In plants that do the job properly to sieve the rubbed sage and sell the larger, better particles under a premium brand label and the smaller particles (that might as well be ground) under a store brand or no-name label - at a higher price than the ground sage sold under the same label. It's the same as when the canners put the ripe, red tomatoes in premium brand cans and the underripe or overly sour ones in generic cans - they might be canned on the same production line but they aren't the same product. Generic is never generic because someone is "passing on savings" - with very few exceptions (ETA chemicals like salt and baking soda, pharmaceuticals), generic is generic because it's inferior. --NellieBly (talk) 19:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Wouldn't rollers tend to form it into flakes ?  Or do you mean the rollers move at different rates or directions ?


 * As for why they might sell the EXACT same product cheaper under a generic label, that can be part of a price differentiation strategy, where they still make some profit off the generics, but make massive profits off the name brands (although maybe not, if they plow it all back into advertising). I've found excellent ground cinnamon for 50 cents a bottle, for example, and can spend 10 times as much for a name brand. StuRat (talk) 14:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Request for help concerning Chinese
Can anyone give me a translation of the following sentences?

"'我是堯舜之裔，生於豐沛，先入咸陽，蜀封興義. 沙丘汝歸，長安我立，帝簡命在，四百之祀. '"

The sentences are from Popular Romance of Western Han (西漢通俗演義), a novel composed by Zhen Wei (甄伟) during Ming Dynasty. In the novel, The First Emperor dreams about two boys disputing over the sun. One boy kills the other and seizes the sun. The emperor asks the boy who he is. The above sentences are the boy's reply.

Thank you so much.

--124.122.100.241 (talk) 16:07, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Here is my best attempt, but I know very little Classical Chinese. If you know a real Chinese person (born and educated in China), ask them and they'll probably do much better than me.
 * I am the descendant of Yao and Shun, born into wealth, first to enter Xianyang (not Xinyang), a righteous feudal lord (?). You go back to the sand dunes, I'll set up Changsha, live amongst the emperors, offering four hundred sacrifices (?) --Bowlhover (talk) 22:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * This is my attempt (not sure if it is 100% correct):
 * "I am the descendant of Yao and Shun, born in Pei City; I will enter Xianyang City first, and I will then be commanded to encourage (or arouse, or cause a rising of) gallants at Sichuan City. You will return to heaven (die) at Shaqiu; I will then establish Chang'an City where emperors will live and enjoy worships for four hundred years."
 * Notes:
 * 豐沛 (feng pei) literally means abundant, rich, plenty, etc. But it is also the nickname of Pei City (now Pei County).
 * 蜀 (shu) is the nickname of Sichuan City (now Sichuan Province).
 * 沙丘 (sha qiu) literally means sand dune. But it is also the name of the place where the first emperor died. Shaqiu is now in Hubei Province.
 * --2001:470:C:156:0:0:0:8 (talk) 06:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Note that 豐沛, which the previous post translated as Pei City, was the birthplace of Emperor Gao, founder of the Han Dynasty. The boy is essentially answering that he is Han Gao (the future emperor), who will found a much greater empire than the dreamer, whose empire hardly outlasted his own life. Marco polo (talk) 18:08, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I would like to correct my translation of 豐沛. My dictionary says that 豐沛 means "home village of first Han emperor" and I thought that 豐沛 refers to one place (Pei City / Pei County) because the OP linked 豐沛 to Pei County. But after reading the Emperor Gao article cited by Marco polo, I think that 豐沛 (feng pei) should, in fact, refer to two places: "Feng Town" (now Feng County) in "Pei County" (now Pei County). The correct translation of 生於豐沛 should then be "born in Feng Town, Pei County". --2001:470:C:156:0:0:0:8 (talk) 19:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * One more thing – Marco polo is right about the boy being Liu Bang (later Emperor Gao). The other boy is Xiang Yu who will battle against Liu Bang for the supremacy over China. Xiang Yu will be defeated and killed. Liu Bang will then found the Han empire and make Chang'an the new capital city. See further info at Chu–Han Contention. --2001:470:C:156:0:0:0:8 (talk) 19:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

is "befall" the right word here?
http://thatspurrfect.blogspot.de/2014/05/cats-prayer.html

and if not, how would a native speaker put it?

somehow the usage of "befall" offends my sprachgefühl :)) Asmrulz (talk) 21:14, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It's usually used with a negative connotation, as in, an accident that happened to someone, or some circumstance that adversely affected an entire continent, e.g. the 2013 example @ here (transitive verb). One would not wish accidents to happen to one's friends, only good things.  I doubt there's any technical objection to the cat's prayer, but idiomatically it's not quite right.  Most people would say "May they always have good health, good fortune and happiness", or similar.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:43, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Most cats would say something like "May my servants always feed and house me, may they accept my purrs as if they were pearls." DuncanHill (talk) 21:50, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course, the content of the prayer is rather suspect - one should pray for "all sorts and conditions of men" (and women) (and DOGS!), not just one's friends and family. Matthew 5:43-48. I can't immediately think of a one-word replacement for "befall", though - "visit", perhaps?  That's rather an archaic usage, though. Tevildo (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I didn't know that. Would "come their way" be good English? Asmrulz (talk) 23:42, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It's good English, but it's a bit too casual for a prayer. It implies an element of luck; that good health (etc) will come to them by chance, rather than by God's will.  "Come to them" would be better, I think. Tevildo (talk) 00:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jack that the connotation is usually negative. You can susbstitute "to happen to" for "befall" and good health doesn't really happen to people.  Given Tevildo is a manifestation of Thu, I would take his advice and use "come to". μηδείς (talk) 00:22, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Rain down on". "Please watch over them always, and let good health, happiness and good fortune rain down on them." Bus stop (talk) 00:51, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That seems even more negative to me. Aside from rain (which is good, notwithstanding the cold and dreariness), other things that "rain down on" people include frogs, blood, bombs and punches. I'd rather fortune "smile upon" or "visit" us than pelt us. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Just noticed Tevildo already said "visit". Good job! Sorry for repeating. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:31, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * But the definition says "to pour something, such as criticism or praise, onto someone or something." Is "praise" negative? Bus stop (talk) 03:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Pouring things on people is sort of a dick move, even if well-intentioned (like the Gatorade on football coaches). There's saturation and oversaturation. No word for "too smiley". (I stand corrected.) InedibleHulk (talk) 03:55, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Showered" might be a bit better. People are idiomatically "showered with riches". A little "cleaner" and "warmer", a little less "sudden" and "violent". You don't often hear people complain about showers they wanted to take. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:07, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, it seems fine to me. --Trovatore (talk) 03:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Just noting that another old-fashioned substitution might be "... attend them" (as in Boulton's version of Ar Hyd y Nos: "Sleep my child and peace attend thee ..."). Deor (talk) 12:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary defines befall simply as "to happen" or "to happen to", but "Let good health, happiness, and good fortune happen to them" sounds odd. Wiktionary also informs us that there is a word misbefall that means "to happen unfortunately (to)", implying that it's unnecessary for befall alone to have negative connotations. (But the fact that it's unnecessary doesn't mean that it doesn't have negative connotations anyway.) —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:28, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

A similarly upbeat "befall" occurs in the The Carol of King Canute by the Right Reverend Charles William Stubbs, (1845 – 1912), the Bishop of Truro. The fourth verse says; "What hap did then befall / To men and women all / From that poor cattle stall, / O Gloria!". It's the only example that I can think of though. Alansplodge (talk) 15:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for teaching me what "effulgent" and "sapientia" mean. I've actually been needing those, somewhat. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:50, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you everyone for your replies! Asmrulz (talk) 15:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)