Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 April 9

= April 9 =

Easy on the outside
What is a word or phrase that explains the phenomenon of when an activity superficially appears to be simple but in reality is complex. Hack (talk) 04:06, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "A minute to learn, a lifetime to master". StuRat (talk) 04:14, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "More complex than it would (at first) appear". StuRat (talk) 04:16, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The phrase "deceptively simple" seems to capture this fairly well.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:25, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "Deceptively simple" seems a bit ambiguous. Hack (talk) 05:50, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I've always understood "deceptively simple" to mean the opposite of what is being asked here. What about "harder than it looks"? — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]  18:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a stock phrase and means the the simplicity you perceive is deceptive (that is, it's actually complex) i.e., in my view more less on point with what the OP sought and not something I coined to try to meet the parameters. The Concise OED provides: "A deceptively simple plan is one that is not simple at all..."--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 21:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * There seems to be a lot of debate about what deceptively simple means. It seems that the meaning can change depending on the context. Hack (talk) 01:41, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The phrase "to open Pandora's box" might apply, especially if the consequences are dire or far-reaching. --Modocc (talk) 18:17, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * And Pandora's box often turns out to be a can of worms. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Are national characteristics moulded by language?
In the thread above (Get off my lawn) there's a discussion comparing the national characteristics of the Portuguese and Spanish. Portuguese is a restful language, while Spanish is spoken very aggressively. Could that have anything to do with it?

I don't think this is a chicken and egg situation because in the case of Portugal it was the presence of the mountains that affected the development of the language.

A Pope once said that he loved the sound of the English language, which reminded him of a tinkling brook. I think the English are regarded as a sensitive people, while the Germans speak a staccato language which matches their reputation for being a hardworking people. Has any research been done on this?

Maybe it's a similar thing to one's character being reflected in one's Christian name, although I know one woman called Angela to whom that certainly does not apply. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 10:53, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * You might like to read the article on Linguistic relativity, which begins "The principle of linguistic relativity holds that the structure of a language affects the ways in which its respective speakers conceptualize their world, i.e. their world view, or otherwise influences their cognitive processes." - Cucumber Mike (talk) 12:12, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * That article seems to conflate theories holding that languages affect their speakers' world views with theories holding that peoples' "national characteristics" affect (or determine the characteristics of) the languages those peoples speak. These seem to me very different ideas. Chicken and egg, indeed. Deor (talk) 14:55, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I once heard Ricardo Montalban say that to a Spanish speaker, English sounds like "barking dogs", due to the lack of trilling the R in most varieties of English. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:45, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, Victor Borge often said that northern Europeans speak more from the back of the throat while Latins speak at the front of the mouth. He didn't attribute that to anything fancy other than that it's cold in northern Europe and warm in southern Europe. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:45, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * As I am sure I have mentioned before, I was told by Mexicans (Mixtecans) that English sounds like grr grr grr, when I had told them that Americans think Spanish sounds like diga diga diga. We were all in general agreement with the assertion. μηδείς (talk) 01:03, 11 April 2015 (UTC)


 * On Linguistic relativity - make sure you see Linguistic_relativity - the historical extreme versions of sapir-whorf are generally regarded as rubbish by modern linguists, psychologists, sociologists, neurologists, etc. But if you want a rigorous academic treatment of the support for linguistic relativity in the modern era, see any of the relevant works by John_A._Lucy, particularly his Language Diversity and Thought  SemanticMantis (talk) 16:11, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Expressions of compliment of appearance
In the Anglophone world, is there a way to express compliments of appearance to a person of the opposite sex in a non-sexual manner? Maybe it's only appropriate to compliment that way to someone of the same sex, because it is least likely to be misconstrued sexually? 140.254.136.155 (talk) 12:44, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Personally I am always wary of complimenting someone on their appearance. For a man to compliment a woman on her hair or clothes, for example, reeks of an age of gallantry which (thankfully) is well on its way out.  Even if it's not meant in a sexual manner, it's condescending.  It implies that the woman is only there to be admired in a decorative manner.  Don't do it. --Viennese Waltz 12:53, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Maybe it is more appropriate to gossip about someone's appearance with people of the same sex? 140.254.136.155 (talk) 12:59, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Wow, is this the sad state of affairs in some circles? I regularly complement female friends, and it's almost exclusively well received. If you go and to it to random strangers, that's an entirely different matter. 82.21.7.184 (talk) 00:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * If they've changed their appearance in some substantial way (new hairstyle, clothes, etc.) you could say you like the new X (never say anything if you don't). However, as a man, I simply don't tend to notice these things, unless the new look is outrageous (a purple Mohawk comes to mind). StuRat (talk) 13:02, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Maybe it's only appropriate to compliment that way to someone of the same sex, because it is least likely to be misconstrued sexually? - I would argue that the default interpretation of a male complimenting another male's appearance would be that the first man is exhibiting sexual or romantic interest in the latter, unless the contrary was clearly indicated by the context in which the compliment was given.  I'm reliably informed that women complimenting other women is a different thing altogether; or can be; or usually is; or something.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  13:29, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * That dress is amazing. It does so much for your figure.196.213.35.146 (talk) 13:51, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * A woman I have known for a long time but haven't seen for many years now had a son a few years back.  The first time I saw her after the birth I greeted her and her response was "Haven't you noticed something?" 87.81.147.76 (talk) 15:26, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * WP:OR Of men complimenting men in a nonsexual way - at work, from one rich suit to another: "Nice shoes, did you just get them polished?" - at a college bar, in reference to a shirt "Bro, those stripes are sick" (see for stereotypes about striped shirts on certain young men in the USA) (I swear I actually have heard these :) SemanticMantis (talk) 16:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * How about some references? WP has Complimentary_language_and_gender - here is a paper about compliments in different cultures, specifically about Korean and Japanese speakers adopting their native compliment culture in to English . Here's an examination of Br/AmEng compliment culture . All these links have many refs therein. Now for the WP:OR - in many business and academic settings in the USA, it seems completely reasonable for men to compliment other men - e.g. "Hey, nice tie, Edgar!" - without any sexual connotations. For inter-gender compliments, it really depends on the social norms and the cultural context. Bottom line: every social situation is different, there is no general rule. The same comment could be seen as offensive and sexual from a male manager to a female worker in the workplace, but totally reasonable from a male friend to a female friend in a non-work context. If you make it a habit to compliment many people on many things, regardless of gender, and truly don't mean anything sexual by it, then people will probably recognize it as such. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:52, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I should add - the notion that it's "only appropriate to compliment that way to someone of the same sex" is far too universal and extreme. Non-sexual inter-gender compliments happen every day, all across the Anglosphere. It's just a matter of keeping it polite and having some tact (sense 4, ) to make sure your intentions are not misunderstood. Having some social graces helps too, but most of us just learn those by experience, if ever :) SemanticMantis (talk) 15:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * It is really only ever appropriate to compliment a person on his or her hair or clothing outside of a sexual interaction. Compliments on a person's body or face will come across as flirtation at best.  Marco polo (talk) 19:23, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * What if you are merely comparing that person to a famous, good-looking actor or actress or singer, and that person interprets it as a compliment? Is that more appropriate to say to a member of the opposite sex? 140.254.136.157 (talk) 19:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I think it's very difficult to reference this question to "the anglophone" world, as it is composed of an incredible variety of biotopes, and we have no idea which one you might be referring to ... even if you'd like a percentage of the entire anglophone world, such a figure would be both impossible to find and probably also impossible to interpret. My own niche of experience within the anglophone world is that it is ok to comment positively on people of whatever gender's whatever, but that experience obviously involves my niche, my personality ... i guess the only advice I can sincerely give you is that you should follow your instinct. The fact that you are raising the question here makes me doubt that you are comfortable about doing this, so I guess you better not do it (then again, you said nothing about this being about you and concrete real-life situations, so, apologies in advance). ---Sluzzelin talk  00:30, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * This problem will only be solved when we start disfiguring the goodlooking to make everyone equal, and wearing ski masks, blinders, and fat suits to make sure no one can tell the difference. Until then, children may want to avoid giving compliments entirely, since doing so without tapping one's foot and howling like a wolf from Looney Tunes takes decades of practice. μηδείς (talk) 17:16, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * See "Harrison Bergeron" and The Sirens of Titan. -- Jayron 32 17:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I had of the title Harrison Bergeron before, but hadn't read it.  I once read somewhere by a certain Russian philosopher that failing to give credit to the praiseworthy is much more vicious than failing to punish the blameworthy.  One quote I could find is that "to withhold your admiration from [people's] virtues is an act of moral embezzlement". μηδείς (talk) 01:54, 11 April 2015 (UTC)


 * And I thought I was hungry for validation. —Tamfang (talk) 09:18, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

What does "edlem" mean?
I am looking at a cheese label that tells me that it is mit edlem Weiß – und Blauschimmel (with white – and blue mould.) I can't find the word in my German dictionary or on Wiktionary. Could this be a variant spelling of edelem (dative of edel)? If it is edel what does this mean in the context of cheese? It might be significant that the cheese is from Bavaria where, unhelpfully for foreigners trying to learn the language, they refuse to speak it properly. SpinningSpark 17:42, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, the inflections given at canoo.net seem to say that it is indeed an inflection of edel and that the inflection given on Wiktionary (edelem) is incorrect. SpinningSpark 17:44, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Both spellings are variants in common use. Probably edlem is preferred, though I am not sure.  The word usually means "noble" in both its literal and figurative senses. In this context, I would translate the word as "refined" or "superior", though it is really marketing language that should not be translated literally.  I don't think that the idea of "nobility" works as a marketing message for foods in most parts of the English-speaking world (though maybe it does in England, where they still go in for that sort of thing), and I seriously doubt that a marketing message about cheese in English would refer to mold. However, the phrase that you've quoted is standard German and not Bavarian dialect. Marco polo (talk) 19:10, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. Is there a variant spelling for the uninflected form/ all the other inflections, or just some of them? SpinningSpark 19:55, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't think "edelem" is a variant form in correct common use these days. It sounds very outdated to me, something you will find in Parzival for example (grôz rîcheit dran gekêret / mit edelem gesteine), but not something you'd find in more recent works including Goethe's who wrote "edler", "edle", "edlem", "edlen" etc. I do believe English Wiktionary has it wrong. Duden only features the inflections with omission of "e" as well. ---Sluzzelin talk  20:11, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * To wit, see "Royal Doulton with the hand-painted periwinkles". μηδείς (talk) 20:34, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * @Marco polo: No, "nobility" wouldn't work as a marketing message in England or the rest of the UK, although I'm not sure what you mean by us "going in for that sort of thing". On the other hand, we do understand that mould is an integral part of many good cheeses, although references to it would usually use terms like "blue veined". Bazza (talk) 20:28, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, Google Translate gives "fine white mold" for edlem Weißschimmel—on this page for example. Deor (talk) 22:56, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * de:Edelschimmel was possibly formed after the elder paradigm Edelfäule, see ngrams and the ngrams also show edlem as the preferred useage. --Stuhlsasse (talk) 19:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

ATR 42 at Cambridge Bay Airport, newer livery
How would the above be written in French. I was going to update the fleet numbers on the various Wikipedia articles for First Air and saw that the image was included in the French version but in English. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 22:02, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I'd go with ATR 42 à l'aéroport de Cambridge Bay, aux couleurs plus nouvelles. Something more specific than "newer" (plus nouvelles) might be better, though. --65.95.176.148 (talk) 03:50, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I would say "Un ATR 42 à l'aéroport de Cambridge Bay, aux nouvelles couleurs", without comparative; but if you want to keep it: "Un ATR 42 à l'aéroport de Cambridge Bay dans ses plus récentes couleurs" or "Un ATR 42 à l'aéroport de Cambridge Bay dans sa plus récente livrée". — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I think someone copied the picture settings deirectly from here. I've updated the French article. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 04:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)


 * couleurs actuelles? —Tamfang (talk) 09:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)