Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 August 29

= August 29 =

Out-and-out
Wiktionary:out-and-out tells me that "out-and-out" means "complete, utter". I already knew that, but both examples they give refer to negative things: an out-and-out idiot and an out-and-out lie. The Douglas Adams' quote refers to "an out-and-out atheist", almost as if that were akin to being a criminal.

Is this ever used of positive things, eg. "He is an out-and-out champion", or "I have spoken the out-and-out truth"?

Where did this expression come from, and is there a corresponding opposite, such as "in-and-in"? Thanks. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)


 * By searching Google News, I found "five out and out world-class players" here and "out-and-out champion" here.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 20:18, 29 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Dictionary definitions are indexed at http://www.onelook.com/?w=out-and-out. Vocabulary.com (http://www.vocabulary.com) has (at http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/out-and-out) the definition "complete and without restriction or qualification; sometimes used informally as intensifiers" and the synonyms "absolute, downright, rank, right-down, sheer, complete".  A plumb line (with a plumb bob) indicates a completely vertical line, so "downright" is equivalent to "plumb": "a downright winner, a plumb winner, an out-and-out winner".  Another synonym is "outright", alluding to a completely horizontal line like that indicated by a spirit level.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 00:45, 30 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Halsbury's Laws (title "Gaming") reports a nineteenth - century case on the clause in the 1845 Gaming Act which prohibits bringing legal proceedings to recover any money paid to any person to abide the result of a wager.  The judge ruled that the clause meant "paid out and out" and did not operate to prevent the litigant recovering his own stake.   However, before you all rush off to the betting shop to reclaim all those losing bets you've had over the years please note that although the statute makes betting contracts unenforceable they are not illegal so the bets stand. 89.240.30.79 (talk) 14:13, 30 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The Gambling Act 2005 makes gambling contracts enforceable. See here for some info. DuncanHill (talk) 14:39, 30 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I'd like to correct the impression some readers may get that gambling contracts were unenforceable before 2005.  That's not the case.   Casinos can and did sue customers for the amount paid for chips where the customer's cheque bounced or was stopped.   Bets with totalisators or their agents have always been recoverable in the courts because one party (the tote) cannot lose so it's not a gambling contract.   The same with football pools.   In one case involving Vernons Pools a client sued for a dividend not received (I would guess that either the agent pocketed the money or the coupon got lost).   The court held that the provision in the rules that the transaction is a "gentlemen's agreement not intended to create legal obligations" and that the agent is the agent of the customer meant the client could not recover.
 * The plaintiff's lawyer argued that the agent is quite obviously the agent of the pool promoter (he hands out the coupons, collects the money, sends the coupons to the promoter, gets paid commission etc.) and then invoked the maxim "notice to the agent is notice to the principal".
 * However, it is true that for a legally binding contract to come into being there must be an intention to create legal obligations.  So for example if two scrabble players agree that whoever loses the game will go out and buy kebabs for both at the local takeaway that is not legally enforceable.   The judge agreed that the agent was acting for the promoter.   As he put it, "You can say in the contract that black is white but that doesn't make it true".   Nevertheless, the client had signed away his legal rights and could not claim.
 * The National Lottery has been sued by players for winnings in cases where either the ticket was lost or the claim under the lost ticket rule was made outside the 180 - day deadline for claims.  The lottery started in 1994 and whether any cases pre - date 2005 I cannot say. 89.240.30.79 (talk) 15:20, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, let's say that two drinkers are playing cards in a pub and are betting on the outcome of the hands.  By closing time one player is ten thousand pounds down.   Do you think his opponent can recover his winnings by issuing a writ in the High Court?   The courts have always regarded gambling suits as void as being an abuse of process.   Do you know of any cases which have actually been brought? 89.240.30.79 (talk) 15:35, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The verse of the old music-hall My Old Dutch begins with the lines "I've got a pal, A reg'lar out an' outer", where "out an' outer" is clearly meant positively. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Other gambling cases you might come across are where a friend contributes to the cost of a ticket but the player keeps all the money.  That is why the National Lottery recommends that syndicate agreements be reduced to writing.   Sometimes the syndicate leader doesn't tell the members they've won, or says they won less than they actually did, or misrepresents the bet which was placed or the results in cases where the members have a record of the selections and check them against the results.   Another variation on the theme is where the player hands in the ticket to the shop for checking and the proprietor tells him it is a loser after verifying it is a winner, retains the ticket and claims for himself.   That requires the National Lottery to be pretty proactive and note that a National Lottery outlet is claiming a jackpot.   All this is peanuts compared to the people who simply do not claim even multi - million pound wins, on a par with the billions which the banks have in dormant accounts and life insurance companies have in policies which have matured but are unclaimed. 92.24.106.233 (talk) 10:54, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Transliteration of French into Hebrew
I need some help with something that I should really be asking about at the Hebrew equivalent of the reference desk, but I don't speak Hebrew. So I was hoping somebody could get this information for me from Hebrew-speaking Wikipedians.

I would like to find detailed instructions for transliterating French names into Modern Hebrew in a standard way, if there is such a thing. For example, this could be some agreed upon system used in Israeli newspapers or library catalogues. I would obviously prefer it if the instructions were in a Western language, but I understand such a thing may only be available in Hebrew, in which case I will make do with the Hebrew text. But first I need to find it.

Thanks for any help you can give me. 184.171.213.97 (talk) 20:34, 29 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Here is a a page of instructions for transcribing French names into Hebrew (it's in Hebrew, unfortunately).
 * At the Hebrew Wikipedia's Language reference desk, requests for transcriptions from various languages are a pretty usual thing, and many of the users know English, so it wouldn't be much a of a problem if you use English to post any questions you may have.
 * You could also ask me if you'd like to have (suggestions for) Hebrew renditions of some specific names - although I'm not really a Hebrew speaker, I'd say I do have some idea of how transcription works. --Theurgist (talk) 00:23, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot. That Hebrew Wikipedia page looks like it will do perfectly. I'll start with that and ask again if I have trouble with specific issues. 184.171.213.97 (talk) 01:44, 30 August 2015 (UTC)