Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 December 12

= December 12 =

I don't give a damn
Consider:
 * I don't give a hoot
 * I don't give a tinker's cuss
 * I don't give a fuck

These are always said with the stress on the thing that's not being given (the hoot, the cuss, the fuck). That makes sense. Yet when the thing that's not being given is a damn, the stress tends to be on the verb "give". That might make sense when a damn was already under discussion, and a different verb is now being introduced. To contrive an example:

(I did say it was contrived).
 * What's your opinion of damns?
 * I'm indifferent to them.
 * Why's that? I like them.  In fact, I cherish them.
 * Well, you're free to cherish a damn, but I don't give a damn.

I've always wondered why people say it this way when there's no pre-existing context. Was it just because that's the way Clark Gable spoke and people copied him? I mean, it would sound odd if people started saying "I don't give a tinker's cuss" rather than "I don't give a tinker's cuss", wouldn't it? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I stress your first three differently, so I'm not sure that you're premise is universally correct enough to lead to the dilemma you note. -- Jayron 32 21:53, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm with Jayron32. It sounds normal the way the Butler did it. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm many things, Jayron, but I am not yet "premise" --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  03:18, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, the rumors of his premise were greatly exaggerated. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:05, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the difference is whether or not the phrase is being stressed as a unit or if the verb and noun are stressed independently. All of them could be stressed on the noun or the verb; I think the difference is that "give a damn" is more strongly established as a set phrase. Peter Grey (talk) 03:11, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Is it always stressed on "give"? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  03:30, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * No, not always, especially in not give a damn about something.  Peter Grey (talk) 04:57, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * What Clarityfiend is alluding to is the influence of the line "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn", delivered by Clark Gable as Rhett Butler in the film Gone with the Wind, with the emphasis on the "give" rather than the "damn". This was probably done to soften the blow of the word "damn", which was considered shocking in a film at that time. The word "frankly" was probably added for the same reason - in the book, he says "My dear, I don't give a damn". --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * OR, but I would lay money on the term being shortened from something like "I don't give a [damn] care/thought," along the lines of this exchange. μηδείς (talk) 04:14, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The song "Games People Play" by Joe South clearly puts the emphasis on the word "damn", not "give" . . . or at least on the part where the word "damn" would be. Khemehekis (talk) 05:19, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I refer people to the scene at the end of "Gone with the Wind" where the male protagonist tells the female "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn". I once read (apologies for no reference here but it was in a UK newspaper a long time ago) that Clark Gable was told to alter the emphasis from that which was normal to lessen the shock to cinemagoers at the bad language used! --TammyMoet (talk) 10:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That's correct;  'Such profanity was forbidden under the Production Code and Selznick had to pay $5,000 to the Motion Picture Producers and Distributers of America for permission to use that line, the shock effect being slightly diluted by Gabel's delivery, where he shrewdly places emphasis on "give" rather than "damn"'. From The Routledge Encyclopedia of Films (2015), edited by Sabine Haenni, Sarah Barrow, John White. Alansplodge (talk) 12:39, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * So, that really gets to the nub of my question. Had the above issue not been an issue, Rhett Butler would have naturally said "Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn", and the world would not have blown up.  But he said "... give a damn", and millions of people have followed suit.  Such is the legacy of Clark Gable.  Thanks, particularly to my two intrepid British compadres.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:00, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * You can accept that if you like, User:JackofOz, but the problem is that "damn" is a verb, and Rhett Butler uses it as a shortened form of damned as in "damned thought" or "damned consideration". As for the emphasis, I have no opinion, given we're listening to direction, not actual usage. μηδείς (talk) 02:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't accept that "damn" is a verb here. Wiktionary:damn recognises damn as a verb, adjective, adverb, interjection or noun, depending on the context. As a noun, the 3rd usage is:
 * (profane) The smallest amount of concern or consideration.
 * and the example given is, lo and behold:
 * I don’t give a damn. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  05:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, your underlying point was about stress, and I have no comment. But the origin of damn is verbal.  Next you'll be telling me chronic is a noun meaning marijuana. μηδείς (talk) 21:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC)


 * No, but I'll be telling you that you're dissembling. The ultimate origin of "damn" is of no account here.  It has pentafurcated since those misty times.  We're talking about the noun "damn" here.  We're only discussing the part of speech because you started asserting that it's a verb, and apparently always and only a verb.  I've demonstrated that it has five grammatical functions, verb being only one of those functions.  What was the point of this diversion? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:11, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I read a long time ago that "give a damn" is a corruption of "give a dam", a dam being an old Indian coin of very low value. Rather to my surprise, our article on the coin does give this as a possible origin of the phrase. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:17, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Check out EO: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:42, 15 December 2015 (UTC)