Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 December 3

= December 3 =

Convert Russian GPS format to English
How do you write the this Russia GPS coordinate "47°17′58″ с. ш. 39°40′25″ в. д." in English? Presumably the Cyrillic letters are referring to cardinal directions, but I don't know which one. I'm also not sure whether they use the same (latitude, longitude) format or not. 731Butai (talk) 04:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * According to Google-translate, "northern latitude" is "северной широты" in Russian, which would fit with your "с. ш.", and "eastern longitude" is "восточной долготы", i.e. your "в. д.". Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * In this context, those two expressions are in the genitive case, hence the -ой and -ы endings. But when referring to them nominatively, they'd be "северная широта" and " восточняя восточнaя долгота".  English makes no such distinction. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  09:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Small typo correction: "восточняя" should be "восточная". --Amble (talk) 21:50, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Quite so. Thanks.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:55, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Can you decipher this tattoo in Hebrew?
I can't make any sense of the Hebrew in the tattoo in this picture. (Another picture, same tattoo). If this is to be read as מהנד אמיר then I've found a Google+ page with that name but without any actual content. It could be a name, maybe a name in Arabic. But there could be other alternative readings: for example the second word could be אמ''ר and not אמיר. Contact Basemetal   here  19:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * In Arabic the transcription of the Hebrew would be مهند أمير where مهند is a common Arabic name Muhannad and أمير could be a name Amir or Emir but also means emir. But then why would he have transcribed the Arabic into Hebrew letters instead of using Arabic letters in his tattoo in the first place? Contact  Basemetal   here  20:04, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The resolution isn't very good on this screen, but the second word looks like אסיר ("prisoner", "captive") to me.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 22:20, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Is it a photo of an extreme rightwing Israeli? The words are definitely written in block script, and I'm wondering if the second word is a reference to Yigal Amir? --Dweller (talk) 13:21, 4 December 2015 (UTC) (NB I know Amir spells his surname with an ayin, not an aleph, but why shouldn't tattooists in Israel be exempt from this malarky? See --Dweller (talk) 13:24, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, the guy is from Nablus (see here), but it might be the tattoo was part of his attempt to pass himself as a Jew. I'm curious what tattoo he picked. No luck so far. Contact Basemetal   here  13:57, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with the right-hand word's spelling as given by OP User:Basemetal describes, though I don't know what it might mean. For the left-hand word: intriguing as User:WilliamThweatt's suggestion is with its criminal association, the second letter is probably not a samekh which is unlikely to be widened at the base as in most Hebrew typography it's curved or even pointed (similar to the Hebrew tet). So the word on the left appears to be AMIR, spelled alef-mem-yod-resh, a not-uncommon surname or male first name, far more so than the almost-homonym spelled with ayin described by User:Dweller, above. The Hebrew Wikipedia happens to have a Language Reference desk - shall I cross-post this query for you there? -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:15, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes thank you Deborah. Please go ahead and post it there. Contact Basemetal   here  16:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Incidentally is מהנדס ("engineer") ever used as a title? If yes is it ever shortened to מהנד like say "Dr." for "Doctor" in English? (Leaving aside what מהנד might actually mean in this tattoo) Contact Basemetal   here  16:34, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't recall seeing "engineer" abbreviated as a professional title in Hebrew though several others are in use: att'y, accountant, social worker. Possibly the early 20th C. European immigrants had some equivalent for the honored Ing. designation. -- Deborahjay (talk) 20:07, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * What, no update? Inquiring minds would like to know. It occurred to me that Hebrew letters also represent numerals, so although I suspect the word on the left is Amir, there may be a date or prisoner number in there somewhere. Akld guy (talk) 21:55, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Activity at the :he:WP:RD/L is sluggish and many queries languish unanswered. I may send this link to selected cognoscenti - but realize that the topic itself may provoke only revulsion. Meanwhile, watch this space (patiently). -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi there, a native Hebrew speaker is here. The tattoo undoubtedly reads "Muhannad Amir" (Hebrew: מֻהַנַּד אַמִיר). The first word is an arabic first name, the second word being the surname.
 * Two questions have still remained: 1. Why does this Arab prisoner use Hebrew letters instead of Arabic letters? 2. Who is Muhannad Amir? He cannot be the prisoner, because thanks to this page supplied by User:Basemetal in their second response, we can also discover the prisoner's name: Ahmed Bani Jaber.
 * As for User:Dweller's hypothesis that the prisoner is Yigal Amir: This is impossible, even theoretically (hadn't we known that the prisoner is an Arab whose name is Ahmed Bani Jaber), because Yigal Amir is an orthodox religious jew, whose religion forbids using tattoos (Leviticus 19 28).
 * As for User:Akld guy's hypothesis, stating that maybe the word on the right represent a date written in Hebrew letters: This could theoretically be a possible option, had he been a religious orthodox jew, because religious orthodox jews tend to use the Hebrew calendar whose dates are written in Hebrew letters; However the prisoner is an Arab, so why should he use the Hebrew calendar?
 * As for User:Akld guy's second hypothesis, claiming that maybe the prisoner uses Hebrew letters in his tattoo in order to indicate his prisoner number: In my view, he wouldn't have done that, because of two reasons: 1. Modern Hebrew uses Hebrew letters as numerals in very specific (and rare) cases only, e.g. when indicating dates of the Hebrew calendar, and sometimes also when printing ordinal numbers of pages of books (e.g. "עמוד כג" i.e. "page Kaf Gimmel" meaning "page 23"), and sometimes also when indicating ordinal numbers of footnotes or of paragraphs and the like, but Modern Hebrew never uses its letters as numerals in most of the cases, including the case of indicating prisoner numbers. 2. Why should a prisoner indicate his prisoner number on his tattoo? Tattoos are usually intended to perpetuate or to immortalize something, aren't they? But I don't see why any prisoner in the world may want to perpetuate his status by a tattoo, which will be hard to remove (if at all) in the future, while he's looking forward to getting released as soon as possible. 87.68.54.45 (talk) 10:26, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for confirming the Hebrew spelling. Since the man in the photo has been identified, the question narrows to the significance of the name "Muhannad Amir" for him. Possibly a close friend or relative he's commemorating? Since very few Israeli Jews read Arabic script (only 2.5% can read a newspaper and only 1% can read a book, according to a study published in today's Haaretz English edition), the use of Hebrew might mean it's intended for Jews to read. Fact: look at all the discussion Hebrew readers are conducting here. -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:37, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, I didn't think the person is Yigal Amir, who doesn't look anything like that, wouldn't have a tattoo and, presumably can ensure his name is spelled right. I thought it might have been a tattoo in his "honour", which is the kind of thing a [POV removed] person might do. --Dweller (talk) 12:02, 7 December 2015 (UTC) Btw, we have a number of articles on notable Muhannads, see Mohannad. --Dweller (talk) 12:04, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * 87.68, thank you very much for your comprehensive answer which addressed each matter raised and which I've noted for future reference. Akld guy (talk) 16:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Just to close off an unanswered matter from above: But then why would he have transcribed the Arabic into Hebrew letters instead of using Arabic letters in his tattoo in the first place?  -- according to a recent conference on the use of Arabic in the Jewish population, with only 10-15% of Israeli Jews able to understand spoken Arabic, most are illiterate; only about 2.5% of Israeli Jews can read a newspaper or write. So for the vast majority of Jews, an Arabic-script tattoo would be meaningless. Whatever conclusions might be drawn about this tattoo being in Hebrew letters might take these facts into account. -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:28, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Question about "ghast..." words
I have a question about vocabulary. If a person looks at something terrifying, they are terrified, and experience terror. If they look at something ghastly, they are aghast, and experience... what? 212.105.160.248 (talk) 21:23, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure there's a good English word for that, the "ghast" morpheme does not appear to be productive in modern English; that is "Ghast" words represent a "closed class" of words, which are set and do not readily combine with other morphemes to produce new, meaningful words. -- Jayron 32 21:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * There was a rare Old English word gǽstan (to frighten or terrify). Shakespeare used a Middle English version of it in King Lear (Or whether gasted by the noyse I made).  Our modern word ghost probably comes from the same root.    D b f i r s   21:38, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:18, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I wrote probably because of the "gh" spelling which came from Flemish gheest.   D b f i r s   22:27, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "Argghh! Not Shakespearean words again, *groan*... " Martinevans123 (talk) 22:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Pedantry, as usual: Shakespeare wrote Modern English, not Middle English. Deor (talk) 22:27, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Valid pedantry, but it was Elizabethan, or Early Modern, and this word was left over from Middle English and ceased to be used (except in a few dialects) once Modern English settled down.   D b f i r s   22:45, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "Well really, dear, my flabber has never been so ghasted!" Martinevans123 (talk) 22:30, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks also to Dbfirs for the answer. Is "gast" or "ghast", meaning "fear", used by Shakespeare or other authors of that time? 212.105.160.248 (talk) 22:05, 3 December 2015 (UTC) [From the OP via the Talk page. Tevildo (talk) 22:46, 3 December 2015 (UTC)]
 * The noun gast was very rare, but does appear in dialect. The adjective was occasionally used (by Byron and Browning, with the "h" spelling), but the noun seems to be turning into the adjective aghast in: This done, the woman in a gast, and pale as death, comes and tells her lady who had stollen her things she missed, and that they were in such a chest in her house" from Robert Law's "Memorials ..." in 1690.    D b f i r s   23:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thomas Hardy uses it in his 1866 poem "In Vision I Roamed":
 * "In footless traverse through ghast heights of sky,
 * To the last chambers of the monstrous Dome,
 * Where stars the brightest here to darkness die:
 * Then, any spot on our own Earth seemed Home!" Martinevans123 (talk) 23:19, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "If they look at something ghastly, they are aghast, and experience... what?" Horror. Akld guy (talk) 06:54, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm flabbergasted :-) Alansplodge (talk) 13:15, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I have a vague idea that a "ghast" is also some kind of creepy malevolent supernatural being, and no I'm not confusing it with "ghost". Anyone? --Dweller (talk) 13:18, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe because you play Minecraft? I'm pretty sure the "Ghast" character was created for the game specifically; the term AFAIK did not apply to a creepy creature until it was used there.  -- Jayron 32 13:47, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope. I think it might have been some dabbling with D&D in the early 1980s. --Dweller (talk) 13:16, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Minecraft was my first thought too, but of course we have an article called ghast! It is used in other works of fiction as well. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:49, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, but they're all neologisms created by the authors for use in works of fiction. None represent a "natural" word that has developed and is widely used among English speakers.  -- Jayron 32 14:21, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * At a pinch, might one use "aghastness"? I operate on the principle that if one can modify an English word according to the regular principles, then the result, even if rare or unattested, should be cromulent. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 14:28, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, aghastness has been used in the language since 1845, and is certainly attested with four cites in the OED, unlike the neologism cromulent that has not yet been accepted as a British English word.  D b f i r s   14:46, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * A cromulent is a type of bird, isn't it? KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 14:09, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, the European variety is known for its avoision of foilage. μηδείς (talk) 16:59, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Coises! Foiled again! KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 21:57, 8 December 2015 (UTC)


 * In theory, to be "aghast" would be equivalent to "looking like having seen a ghost", but in practice it's rather less than that - it's more like a synonym for "appalled", for example - like "offended". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:54, 4 December 2015 (UTC)