Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 February 23

= February 23 =

English pronunciation of given name "Liza"
Take a look here. Thanks.--Carnby (talk) 12:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * As Adam Bishop has indicated on that talk page, Ms. Minnelli's name is pronounced /ˈlaɪzə/ (like an aphetic version of the name of the main female character in My Fair Lady). Deor (talk) 13:24, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Khmer neak
Can anyone give a range of meanings for this - sorry I can't do Khmer script, but I mean the neak as in neak ta, neak thom. 12:45, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * អ្នក ( or neak), has a wide range of uses in Khmer, some of which include:
 * a neutral (i.e. between equals; polite, but not necessarily formal) 2nd person singular pronoun ("you").
 * functioning as a sort of kinship term when addressing an older brother-in-law (husband of an older sister) or, less often, an older sister-in-law.
 * as a general noun, it means "person" or "people".
 * an agentive particle used to create nouns: កីឡា (keilaa, "sports") > អ្នកកីឡា (neak keilaa, "athlete"); កោះ (kah, "island") > អ្នកកោះ (neak kah, "islander").
 * spelled នាក់, a classifier for people (commoners only, there are different classifiers for royalty, Buddhist clergy, etc.)
 * The neak in neak ta can't really be analyzed separately. It would just be "you grandfather". Neak ta is a complete term in and of itself that can mean "ancestor spirits", "village spirit", "guardian spirits", etc. Context is usually sufficient to determine which spirits are meant, but it can be clarified when needed: អ្នកតាព្រៃ, neak ta prey("forest spirits"). Neak thom is an example of the agentive particle. Thom means "big" or "important", neak thom is "an important/powerful person, dignitary or high-ranking official".--William Thweatt TalkContribs 02:49, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that's very comprehensive. PiCo (talk) 05:04, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Filmographies, not just for films anymore?
After looking at this edit where the editor replaced the word "Filmography" with the more verbose "TV and filmography", I started wondering if the term 'filmography' could be applied to TV shows as well. So, I looked the word up and it does seem to refer simply to films. Is there a change going on in the language that would have it include TV shows as well? I often see it the fields combined here on Wikipedia but what about the English speaking world outside of WP? By the way, I would have changed it to simply 'filmography' because I feel the longer form is too clunky but I don't really have anything other than my opinion to back me up. Dismas |(talk) 12:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I blame IMDb for this. They mix them together over there. It might be worthwhile to discuss this at the film project and see if we should move the TV credits to their own section. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:43, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * This is probably a question for the appropriate MOS talk page. I see nothing wrong per se with Film and TV if that's what's involved, or Selected Works or one could even say Videography although filmography seems to be the expected word, and not normally to include TV.  For example of why not to do this, consider one section that included all of Bette Davis's films and TV appearances in cameos and on talk shows.  It would be a horrible mess. μηδείς (talk) 18:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers is the appropriate place; I'm going to start a discussion there. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:45, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * A lot of television production still uses film, right? I don't see the problem. Take a look at and its subcats. The title format is often "Joe Blow filmography" even when there are TV roles, or even completely non-film formats like radio and stage. Others have resorted to clunkier, if more inclusive, titles. --BDD (talk) 15:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Identification and self-identification
In the translation of languages, and even within one language, people have a tendency to use whatever other people call them (which may be good or bad) and use the terms to describe themselves. Linguistic reappropriation is similar in concept, but it focuses on a bad word that later turns into a neutral or good word or just a word for self-identity. Is there a broader term for reappropriation that does NOT have to come from a bad label? English speakers say "China", referring to the Qin dynasty, the first imperial dynasty, but Chinese speakers say "中国", which is translated literally as "Middle Country" or "Middle Kingdom". English speakers say "England", but Spanish speakers say "Ingleterra". That at least sounds like a literal translation. Ingle. English. Terra. Land or earth. 66.213.29.17 (talk) 17:20, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The broadest word to describe the concept of which you are speaking is called an ethnonym. That article has links to a variety of origins of ethnonyms as well as classes of sources of ethnonyms.  -- Jayron 32 18:46, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, the Spanish is Inglaterra, which is a calque of Englaland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Medeis (talk • contribs)


 * I think what the OP is trying to get at, is if there's a neutral term for using another culture's ethnonym for you to describe yourself, other than reappropriation. For example, how some western Japanophiles call themselves Gaijin.  Ian.thomson (talk) 23:07, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Gaijin is perfectly normal for us foreigners who live there for a while and actually make an attempt to assimilate (unlike most, who are only there for a year or so). Newcomers tend to find it offensive, despite the fact that the word merely means 'foreigner', which is exactly what they are. Anyway, I fail to see how the word 'China' could be considered bad - OK, China is not an imperial nation (so they say), but it's still the word used in English, so they accept that, because there is no other word for China in English (besides Cathay, and other archaic words). China calls the UK 英國, 'YingGuo' for phonetic reasons, in the same way as China may have been named after the 'Qin' Dynasty. I still fail to see your point that 'people use terms that other people call them to refer to themselves' as 'China' is not called, for example, 氣愛那 in Chinese. Your other example of Inglaterra being Spanish for England also does not become an example in your question, as worded. Inglaterra was called Inglaterra because it was called Englalond before the word Inglaterra was introduced into Spanish.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  23:40, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * My point was not to say that "people use terms that other people call them to refer to themselves' as 'China' is not called, for example, 氣愛那 in Chinese", whatever that is supposed to mean. My point was to say that Chinese speakers call "中国", a term that bears no allusion to the Qin dynasty, whereas the English term "China" does. And I never said or implied that "China" or "中国" was bad. 66.213.29.17 (talk) 23:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, then, it's not reappropriation, is it, as the two terms are completely unrelated.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  00:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually it's even closer. The UK is often named "England" in foreign languages. 英国 (Yingguo) is derived from 英格兰 (Yinggelan, "England"). The official name would be 大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国 (Great "Buliedian" and Northern "Aierlan" United Kingdom). 法国 comes from 法兰西共和国 "Falanxi" Republic (France), 德国 comes from 德意志联邦共和国 "Deyizhi" Federal Republic ("Deutsch"land, Germany) and 希腊 Xila (Hellas, Greece). It's a mix of phonetic transcription (of either how the country call itself or the English name) and translation of meanings. Chinese doesn't allow consonant clusters and has undergone palatalization (e.g. gi, ki, hi became ji, qi, xi). Many countries would be transcribed differently if there wasn't already a name since there are syllables closer to the actual pronunciation. --2.245.102.193 (talk) 21:20, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure, but usually when in China, we would use the short name 英国 (Yingguo) to say where we are from, which is actually far more understandable and palatable to the locals than 大不列颠及北爱尔兰联合王国.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  04:04, 26 February 2015 (UTC)


 * "Inglaterra" is cognate with "England", as "Spain" is cognate with "España". But as noted, some country's names are totally different from what we call them, thanks to ancient assignations which persist to this day. My German colleagues, when speaking English, would call their own country "Germany" even though they call it Deutschland; and speaking to them (in English) and happened to call it "Deutschland", they found it kind of disconcerting (possibly because I wasn't pronouncing it the right way). And it's like when we call the Hellenic Republic "Greece", Misr/Masr "Egypt", and Nippon "Japan". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Why would they call their country "Deutschland" when they speak English? Obviously they would use a term you understand easier. --2.245.102.193 (talk) 21:20, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Slight correction. Cognates are words that derive from the same root.  Terra is not cognte with land, but rather with thirst--meaning "dry".  The proper term here is calque, which is a literal, word for word substitution--a borrowing of meaning, but not form. μηδείς (talk) 06:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Of course, as both I and Bugs have said, when it comes to the name of countries, we call them by whatever name we have historically called them, whilst they may (and usually do) have their own name for it, and when speaking in the respective languages, each would use both. @OP Your examples were not relevant.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  02:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think "Japan" and "Nippon"/"Nihon" are fundamentally the same word, aren't they? 109.157.10.148 (talk) 04:46, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * They are exactly the same word (日本), just different pronunciations, and can be used interchangeably. Incidentally, the word 'Japan' is related to the word 'Nippon', as it comes from an older pronunciation of the Chinese for 'Riben' (Japan), which was something like 'nyitbon', from whichever dialect it came. The 'ny' became 'J' in Portuguese. Compare the old name Zipangu (日本国).  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  05:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Seems I did not express myself clearly since your "incidentally" is the whole purpose of my comment, which was to query the apparent suggestion in the previous post that "Nippon" and "Japan" were etymologically different words. 86.150.71.35 (talk) 18:09, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Also see exonym and endonym.  → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 19:30, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * To whom is Michael J responding? —Tamfang (talk) 01:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I've seen a reconstruction of the first element as /nziet/ (with some odd diacritics that I don't remember). Successor languages lost either the /n/ or the /z/. —Tamfang (talk) 01:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry, Tamfang, I chose a 'y' instead of the ʐ that I should have used. I just couldn't find it.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  04:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I know very little Japanese, but when I was in lockup I befriended an American Lesbian who had served in Japan. I asked her to confirm that "Atashi wa gaijin desu" was correct.  She told me I should say "Boku wa gaijin da." When I speak to Hispanics I say my family are puros gringos, "pure gringos". μηδείς (talk) 06:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know what gender you are, Medeis, but the first example is correct for female speakers, and the second for male speakers using the more humble male pronoun 'boku' than the less humble male pronoun 'ore'. However, this is a phrase I would only ever use on the phone, as when speaking to someone face to face, my caucasian features would make the explanation unnecessary. Language teaching materials are very often not very good, and use useless phrases to illustrate their points. "This is a pen" in Japanese is 'kore wa pen desu.' When I was teaching in Japan, I was half expecting someone to say, "Yeah, we know, that's what we call it in Japanese."  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  18:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I assumed someone might catch that, and had I said watashi it would have also implied something, as does my use of "lockup" (which is not quite accurate either), but the salient point was that the lesbian said that she herself used boku, which was the joke. My real question to her was not about the verb or pronoun, but about gaijin. μηδείς (talk) 18:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * You'd be surprised. A lot of 'tomboy-type' Japanese female children use 'boku', and in Nagano, old women use 'ore' to refer to themselves (I have never met a lesbian Japanese, but I am sure they have the same 'gender roles' as western lesbians). 'Watashi' is perfectly OK for both genders. 'Watakushi' is even more formal, yet OK for both genders. 'Gaijin' is perfectly acceptable, however, it is short for 'gaikokujin', which actually means 'foreigner' or more specifically 'someone from another country'. Newcomers tend to pseudo-translate 'gaijin' as 'outsider' (which could be a literal translation if you are super-sensitive and unable to understand that words can be shortened).  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  01:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * My lesbian tutor was an American, probably descended from the British Isles, not a native Japanese. μηδείς (talk) 03:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Calling oneself a "gringo" is probably also a good ice-breaker. It's harder to be labeled when you've already done it yourself. (Kind of like when Brits call us "Yanks" and think they're insulting us.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:09, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * This is a common topic, actually. A while back (a few years ago), there was a question here asking if us Brits find the word 'Brit' offensive, but we don't, because that is actually what we call ourselves. I've had this conversation numerous times with 'yanks' in real-life, too. We don't mind it at all.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  18:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Lily-livered limey. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:45, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Bah, Jack, don't complain. You steal a loaf of bread and we send you off on a lifelong holiday on a huge tropical island for free. We have to pay for it. Bloody Ozzies, don't know they're born... :)  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  21:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)