Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 February 6

= February 6 =

Facial expressions in prose
Hi, I would like to ask for a translation of this image, which is a list of facial expressions in Russian. Thanks in advance... --CesarFelipe (talk) 02:03, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * The first four in the first column are joy, happiness, surprise and doubt. The first three in the second column are fear, shock, and mistrust.  But this is going by a translation of the words, and I find the drawings connected with an English gloss of the Russian word of very dubious value.  You can ask regulars  and  for translations of the words.  Most of the final line is illegible, but they might be able to work backwards from the expression to figure the word.   Personally, I'd swap the first two captions.  Joy is strong and immediate, happiness is a long term mood, not temporary laughter.  There are also similar English charts.  It might help if we knew your purpose.  μηδείς (talk) 9:50 pm, Today (UTC−5)


 * Well, I'm looking for words to describe in prose some of the less obvious expressions in the chart, such as 5 in row 1 (I guess you mean row when you say column), all in row 2 except the last one, and practically all in the last 2 rows. I was looking for charts in English but this one had several expressions I would like to know how to describe. So perhaps what I should ask for is not simply a translation, but words that actually work best to describe each expression? --CesarFelipe (talk) 03:14, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I said neither row nor column, I said line, which means row in tis case. Dime si hablas espanyol, porque lo hablo mejor que hablo ruso.  Hablo un un poco de un dialecto de ruso por senso lado, el rutenio, que es el dialecto de mis padres.  (Por ejemplo, los rusos dicen algo como schasch para decir allegria, cuando you digo shischia.  The big problem is not translating the words, but whetehr the words that result actually math the words you'd use in English to described the faces being made. The more you can tell us why theis interests you, the more relevant an answer we can give. μηδείς (talk) 03:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * This got messed up by an edit conflict. The last word of the first line (row), угрюмость, is "glum- sullen-" or "surliness", none of which seems like a good word for the face in English.  The fourth word of the second row is задумчивость, dreaminess or thoughtfullness acording to translation, which I would not use for that face at all, while the fifth word, озарение, is translated as "inspiration" or "enlightenment", but I would call the face "lust". μηδείς (talk) 18:00, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, let me put it this way. I want to describe each of those facial expressions in a sentence, for example "He frowned" or "He smiled wryly". What I'm looking for is for words that allow me to do this for each expression, in particular those I listed. I thought the Russian words would help me do that but from what you tell me they're generally not the best of choices for this... --CesarFelipe (talk) 03:55, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * No, the words are abstract nouns for the emotions, not verbs for facial motions or states like smile, frown or grimmace. Googling (in quotes) "verbs for facial expressions" gets among its hits this long list you may find helpful. μηδείς (talk) 18:00, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I am fairly certain your chart above was first produced in an English version. If you google "twenty facial expressions" you'll get both articles and similar images.  Tracking down the original English image should be possible.
 * The question is, do you just want to use the words themselves, or are you accurately trying to describe the pictures in sentences using the captions? I personally think the latter could be problematic, because the cartoon pictures don't always closely match what one might think the authors believe they indicate.  For example, if I were teaching a class in English, I'd swap the "joy" and "happiness" captions.  And if any of my students managed to guess "enlightenment" for the last face of the second row I would confiscate his wifi device and fail him for cheating. μηδείς (talk) 18:00, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The first one. --CesarFelipe (talk) 22:17, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The last row is обида (resentment), сосредоточенность (concentration), неуверенность (uncertainty), мечтательность (daydreaming), утомленность (weariness). --catslash (talk) 23:01, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Cash money
OK, this is the sort of thing that gets me banned from the living room while the TV is on. What is the point of saying "cash money"? If you want cash then surely you want money and not "cash elephants" or "cash ?". Is there some place where the word cash does not imply money? CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 05:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Are you really afflicted by people who say "cash money"? Or are you banned for making up preposterous theoretical cases which tax patience more knowledge? Still. Perhaps they're trying to disambiguate a homophone such as cache? Can't think of another good reason for the phrase ... except ... is there not a tradition of using two words where one will do? Spick and span. Cease and desist. See Pleonasm. --Tagishsimon (talk) 05:45, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "Cash money" is kind of an old southernism. Maybe more than just southern, too. Googling "cash money expression" suggests that it's "cash" money as opposed to "credit card" money or "check" money, etc. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:18, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I always assumed that it stemmed from the attempt to disambiguate different types of money. Another southernism is "ink pen." Though that stems from the greater need in that region to clarify the distinction between pin and pen. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 06:59, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * These answers make sense in that I heard the phrase earlier in a "reality" show set in Texas or somewhere similar. Something involving car restoration. As for banishment from the living room that usually occurs when my bullshit detector kicks in during a TV show or film and I find the banal stupidity is too much to keep quiet about. I was asked to look at a McDonald's advert and explain how an Egg McMuffin had only 190 calories (far too easy). But asked to leave after I started a rant over the "cash money". CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 08:21, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Colloquialisms and idioms often lack a point or make sense, hence their charm. "Raining like cats and dogs" makes no sense at all. I used to tease my British aunt about "Bob's your uncle" - huh?? &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  09:11, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Bob's your uncle refers to nepotism as practised by the British Government. The site ecenglish.com has this: "In 1887, British Prime Minister Robert Gascoyne-Cecil appointed his nephew Arthur James Balfour as Minister for Ireland. The phrase 'Bob's your uncle' was coined when Arthur referred to the Prime Minister as 'Uncle Bob'. Apparently, it's very simple to become a minister when Bob's your uncle!" Simples. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Could be, but how many Brits know that background? My aunt certainly never mentioned Robert Gascoyne-Cecil! There's probably a similar origin for "raining cats and dogs", if one digs deep enough. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  11:42, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Michael Quinion here casts some doubt on that origin story of "Bob's your uncle". If the expression is in fact based on events in the 1880s, it's rather suspicious that it's first recorded only in 1937. Deor (talk) 12:21, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * ... well it must have been around for a while before Eric Partridge recorded it in his dictionary of 1937.   D b f i r s   14:24, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It was, but I'm doubtful of the Balfour origin and so is Wordorigins.org. Partridge thought it might originate in the phrase all is bob, meaning "all is safe".  These questions are rarely as simples as they look. --Antiquary (talk) 14:52, 6 February 2015 (UTC)  Ah!  Only just noticed Deor's post.  Mine was rather needless. --Antiquary (talk) 15:17, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree that popular etymologies are often wrong, but I can't see how you get from all is bob to Bob's your uncle. Stephen Spender described the phrase as Cockney in 1940, but I can't work out the rhyme.    D b f i r s   15:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Equally malevolent is "cash on the barrelhead". Clarityfiend (talk) 10:42, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * That one is used to distinguish cash produced at the time of sale, versus the promise of cash at some future date ("I would gladly pay you Tuesday, for a hamburger today.").  Of course, calling the later "credit" would be the obvious solution, but the problem is that the person seeking credit wouldn't want to call it that, so would insist they will be paying in cash (just at some future date).  So, that would force those who really were paying in cash (now) to say something like "cash on the barrelhead", to make that clear. StuRat (talk) 16:15, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * In both British and American English, the usual expression is on the barrel.   D b f i r s   16:40, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * News to me. —Tamfang (talk) 21:35, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I forgot to exclude other uses of "on the barrel". You are correct that Americans more often use "barrelhead" in this context.  In the UK, "on the nail" is much more common, with "barrel" about the same as "barrelhead".    D b f i r s   23:22, 7 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Malevolent? —Tamfang (talk) 21:35, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Surely thou knowest that (love of) cash money/on the barrelhead/barrel is the root of all evil. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:59, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * BBB has this correct. Spanish has the term dinero en efectivo which means cash money, instead of credit, money in an account, or a check.  The only confusion is that cash is both a noun and an adjective, while money is ambiguous between coins and paper in hand or in an account.  Everyone knows a bank doesn't actually have all the money deposited in it sitting in a safe. μηδείς (talk) 18:09, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks everybody. Lots of interesting stuff. Surprised there is no link to Bob's your uncle or raining cats and dogs. My favourite origin for the cats and dogs, which may be no more authentic than anything else, is found here (search for "The much more probable source of"). CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 23:49, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Spanish translation please
Two questions in one night is bad but needs must. In the linked video at the 3:25 mark Scott Bradlee is speaking in English and Robyn Adele Anderson translates into Spanish. However, after his last remark it is obvious that she is saying more than that. What is Anderson saying when she mentions Justin Beiber? CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 05:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * She adds on the fact that if you subscribe to his channel, you can also see her band's other videos, such as (she lists various songs) including one with Justin Bieber. It's a cute little shtick allowing her to plug her videos, without Scott having to admit he didn't mind Bieber's being mentioned. μηδείς (talk) 17:39, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah. Quanaqpiaqqutit. Not sure about the Beiber one but the others by Bradlee are entertaining. They even manage to make this sound pretty good. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 23:08, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Proszim, nicz nebilo. μηδείς (talk) 00:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Needs Must
The above question (which I cannot answer) got me thinking. In fact, I have been thinking about it for a while, as a few friends of mine use this phrase 'needs must' (plus, I do, occasionally). Why do we say that? How to parse it? It's, for me, a plural of the noun 'need' + a modal verb 'must' with no main verb. What exactly must these 'needs' do? Is it short for something? I understand the meaning and how it is used, but don't understand why. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 15:04, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * "Must needs" also occurs, along with "needs must" - see some coverage here  . Wiktionary just calls it an adverb(ial phrase) . This forum quotes the OED, saying:
 * "need"
 * - II. With the modal auxiliaries [...] must, emphasizing the sense of the verb.
 * "Now literary and poet. except in sense 3b.
 * 3. a. Immediately preceding the modal auxiliary (needs must).
 * b. needs must: it is necessary or unavoidable.
 * 4. Immediately following the modal auxiliary (must needs).
 * Plenty to chew on. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:14, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I believe that the full (and older) form is "Needs must, when the devil drives". More fun to deconstruct SaundersW (talk) 19:00, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Several online sources connect it to the Middle English proverb: "Needs must when the devil drives". Apparently, "the phrase became pared down to needs must during the 20th century and, even in that short form, it is rather archaic-sounding and is fading from popular use." . A very similar contraction in current use is "Talk of the devil" (and he will appear). Alansplodge (talk) 19:09, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Confirmation from a reputable source "Needs must... This is a shortened form of the proverb needs must when the Devil drives, which is first found in a work by the medieval author John Lydgate". The Oxford Dictionary of Idioms edited by Judith Siefring. Alansplodge (talk) 19:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Shakespeare used the expression 5 times: once each in All's Well That Ends Well, Coriolanus and Cymbeline, and twice in Antony and Cleopatra (click on "see all the instances at once" and search for "needs must"). I always assumed he coined it, but probably not.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:22, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


 * An earlier (now obsolete) and even more obscure expression was "needs must that needs shall" (= ‘he must whom fate compels’) from the fourteenth century.   D b f i r s   08:57, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm still having trouble parsing "needs must". Is "needs" a plural noun or a verb? For comparison, "If need be". Here I would assume that "need" is a noun and "be" is a verb in the subjunctive mood. --NorwegianBluetalk 10:49, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The OED says: "Apparently originally the impersonal use of must [...] with anaphoric ellipsis of the main verb [...] Now frequently taken to be a plural noun and verb."   D b f i r s   15:53, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but still not totally clear. So the main verb has been elided? Would a reasonable full version be: Whatever needs to be done,  must be done,  when the devil is driving (= is in command)? --NorwegianBluetalk 20:25, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I wasn't totally clear either so I just cited the OED hoping that someone else would explain it!   D b f i r s   23:04, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs explains it as "needs must: used elliptically for 'one needs must (i.e. must of necessity) go'". That's a footnote to their 1843 usage of the proverb, "Needs must when the devil drives!", from Handley Cross by R. S. Surtees.  All their earlier usages, including Lydgate and Shakespeare, are in the form "[He] needs must [or must needs] go that [or when] the Devil drives".  The OED, under the heading needs, unsurprisingly takes the same line, parsing needs must as adverb ("of necessity, necessarily") and verb. --Antiquary (talk) 11:26, 8 February 2015 (UTC)