Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 February 9

= February 9 =

"The law" and street name signs
I have been advised that "the law" is an old term used to mean a "street name sign". I have failed to find any confirmation of this using google. Anyone know if this is true, and if so have any references to it? -- SGBailey (talk) 06:22, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Never heard of it. Here is the origin of "law". Now, in the not too distant past, "the law" was a way to refer to the police force, but that's another story. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:05, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The Oxford English Dictionary doesn't list any such meaning. It's often behind the curve on modern slang but its coverage of old words in standard English is very comprehensive.  Their coverage of dialect is a bit hit and miss, so I suppose it could have been a very local word. --Antiquary (talk) 11:11, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * An extreme long shot, but was this advice by any chance given in Dundee? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.95.237.92 (talk) 14:37, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * In London at any rate, street-name signs are an innovation of the 19th century. Before that, you just had to know your way about. Alansplodge (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It was found in the "hint" for a geocache in Hampshire. I asked the cache owner about it. It seems to me it is likely an erroneous usage. -- SGBailey (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Enumeration (French/Français)
I know that in English, enumeration rules are relatively arbitrary; but most of the time, it is alphabetic, for convenience's sake. E.g.: apples, oranges, and strawberries.

However, I can't seem to find clear rules for enumerations in French (and I'm a native speaker). I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be in reversed alphabetic order, at least many seem to do it that way (e.g. des pommes, oranges et fraises) Am I mistaken? Matt714 (talk) 20:11, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Every Tom, Dick and Harry who speaks English can find many examples where your first presumption is quite wrong... -- Jayron 32 23:29, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't think enumeration when used as a literary device is "supposed to be in reversed alphabetic order" in French. Other elements such as juxtaposition, rhythm, euphony, and maybe also happenstance appear to be more determining. French WP's article on énumération as a figure of speech gives a couple of examples without any alphabetical order, including an inventory of fruit: Ses plus beaux fruits poussent là, cerises, abricots, pêches, coings (from Blaise Cendrars's L'Or (Sutter's Gold in English). ---Sluzzelin talk  08:31, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Not enumeration, but this post made me think of Adjective, which is handled differently in French and English. So "the brick old white big house" sounds horrible to native English speakers, while "The big old white brick house" is fine. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:11, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you're cheating just slightly there &mdash; "brick" is not an adjective in this case, but rather a noun used appositively. The general point is interesting though. --Trovatore (talk) 18:19, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * :) "La grande et vieille maison blanche de briques", unless you choose to color the bricks themselves, like so, "la grande et vieille maison de briques blanches" :)

Matt, I'm a native speaker too, but I've never heard about such enumeration rule. At the contrary, my teachers always teached me that order in French is very smart, and can (must) be switched according to opportunities of sense, beauty, emphasizing, etc. Akseli9 (talk) 20:12, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Apples, Peaches, Bananas and Pears —Tamfang (talk) 21:05, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of such a rule for English, French or any other language; and if I did encounter such a rule I would be sure it was a rule that somebody made up arbitrarily, with no reference to how people actually use the language. How can I be so sure? Because it is a rule which is not even expressible for spoken language (spoken words do not have a spelling, much less an alphabetical order). But even people who cannot read can speak lists of items, and do not "get it wrong". --ColinFine (talk) 00:15, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


 * This is not the first time this question has been asked, one can search the archives for word order, and look at SM's correct answer above. Enumeration is not the proper word for the phenomenon, but since the OP was asking what the phenomenon was it's not surprising the wording was slightly off.  It's quite certain that while people have been told to kiss my big old fat black ass, no one in English has ever been told to kiss the black fat old big ass of me. μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


 * In English, I wouldn't care if it was in alphabetical order unless it was a long list, broken out with bullets. The idea there is for the reader to be able to look for a particular item without reading the entire list.  In the case of a sentence, they are expected to read the whole thing.  I would imagine the rules are similar in French.StuRat (talk) 03:30, 11 February 2015 (UTC)