Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 January 28

= January 28 =

How pronounce "CARMEN" ?
Is it like "CAR" + "MEN" ?

Learnerktm 09:17, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * In which language? English or Spanish? If English - rhotic or non-rhotic? I (non-rhotic, Northern British English) pronounce it as /'kɑːmən/.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  10:48, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * KägeTorä - (影虎) Thank you for your answer. But I just want to know it's general pronounciation, which is mostly spoken. So, I guess that should be english. Actually, I didn't undersand your answer at all. Sorry to say that. :( Just to ask, if I pronounce "CAR" first and then "MEN" altogether. Will it be ok?
 * Learnerktm 12:39, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * It's a Spanish word, not English. It can be used (and is, in fact) as a girl's name in English. If you don't understand IPA, then the best I can give you is 'kah-muhn', for the English pronunciation, with the inital syllable stressed. If you pronounce the second syllable like 'men', then you will give that syllable undue stress.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  13:06, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a Latin word. —Tamfang (talk) 22:20, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * It is also Spanish. I used to live in a place called Puerto del Carmen when I was a kid. There is no need for a correction here, as we could also say it was Chinese 卡门 or whatever other contemporary (i.e. non-ancient) language that uses that word.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  08:21, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Did I say it's not also Spanish? —Tamfang (talk) 04:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You could have phrased it as "It's also a Latin word" or "It's originally a Latin word", which would be better, though irrelevant, as the OP is from Nepal and would be doing his ten-minute appearance in English.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  07:23, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * 'kah-muhn' would work in Boston, where you pok your kah. Maine, New Hampshire, etc, I'm not sure, they do vowels differently sometimes. I think almost anywhere else in Amurka it would be 'kar-muhn'. MHO. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  13:24, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * So to sum up, in nonrhotic dialects it's pronounced pretty much like how they'd pronounce car-men in nonrhotic dialects, whereas elsewhere it's pronounced more like how they'd pronounce car-men elsewhere. I trust that the OP is duly grateful for the distinction. —Tamfang (talk) 22:20, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * As someone who grew up in the US Midwest and now lives in New England, US, I have always pronounced it and heard it pronounced as "CAR-min". Dismas |(talk) 13:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Since the OP is the same one who asked a question about drama on another desk, I sense he may be referring to the opera Carmen. In which case, it's based on the French pronunciation of a Spanish first name, which in fact would be close to "CAR" + "MEN", although the "R" is not English one. The original Spanish would have a somewhat different pronunciation as well. --Xuxl (talk) 13:36, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Carmen is a fully nativized English name, and is pronounced as Dismas says, CARmin, where the "i" is a (reduced vowel) schwi. μηδείς (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I would have said "CAR-m'n". I guess that's pretty much what you're saying. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:22, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * For any given value of "CAR" (that is, however your dialect would pronounce the actual word "car" it is generally pronounced like that in Carmen as well. But Medeis is spot on with the second, non-stressed, syllable).  -- Jayron 32 03:15, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree. I thought that's what was meant by the "muhn", and didn't feel like going to get a ə character (and not everyone would know what ə means in any case). &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  03:24, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * What Bugs has said agrees with me, it's a question of preferences. Some people transcribe the final syllable of bottle, bottom, button and butter as if the had a schwa/schwi-l,m,n,r sequence, and some as if they are syllabic consonants as in rhythm or schism and various Slavic languages. μηδείς (talk) 19:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The non-pre-vocalic/dental and non-citation form pronunciation of Carmen in Spanish is /'kaɾmɛŋ/ somewhat like "Codmeng" in some American dialects. A final en in Spanish is usually pronounced as an eng, unless it's followed by a vowel or another dental consonant, or the speaker is being asked to pronounce it clearly like a dictionary entry outside of a normal sentence. μηδείς (talk) 22:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, an engma pronunciation is kind of non-standard. But in those dialects that do do it (particularly in Central America, the Caribbean, Venezuela, Ecuador, and most of Ecuador and Bolivia), that seems like a fairly good use of respelling to get a roughly accurate pronunciation. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 23:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * In other words, you mean the entirety of the Spanish speaking world except Spain and the Cono del Sur? I have also heard plenty of Spaniards say [bɛŋ] "Ven!" and never [bɛn], unless it was to say [bɛna'ki], where the /n/ is prevocalic. In any case, English speakers should just say "Carmen" in the normal fashion, nd not as any sort of hyperforeignism. μηδείς (talk) 00:44, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The list of countries may have been dizzying, but I also left out Mexico, Colombia, Argentina, Paraguay, Chile, and Uruguay. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps upperclass Mexicans don't use "meng" (I'll have to watch Y tu mamá también again), but it is almost stereotypical to have a Mexican Mestizo or a Chicano speaking English say "What's up, meng?". Argentina, (Paraguay), Chile, and Uruguay all count as Cono Sur. There's the Philippines and Spanish Equatorial Guinea, but let's not go there.  [N] > [ŋ] / 0 is normal in most spoken Spanish. μηδείς (talk) 21:40, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * . — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 21:52, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * From our article on Spanish phonology alone: The three nasal phonemes—,, and —maintain their contrast when in syllable-initial position (e.g. cama 'bed', cana 'grey hair', caña 'sugar cane'). In syllable-final position, this three-way contrast is lost as nasals assimilate to the place of articulation of the following consonant —even across a word boundary; or, if a nasal is followed by a pause rather than a consonant, it is realized for most speakers as alveolar (though in Caribbean varieties this may instead be  or an omitted nasal with nasalization of the preceding vowel).


 * Given I speak Spanish about as much as I speak English on a daily basis, I have difficulty with understanding the challenges here. But of course I am talking about what one hears from usually working-class immigrants in NYC and the surrounding areas.  When I have the time I'll watch some Almodovar and give a time signature. μηδείς (talk) 02:59, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I was asking for corroboration about your dialectological claims. I may have been the one to include the part you quoted, funnily enough, though I suspect that the truth might be somewhere between what MacDonald and Lipski say and what you are saying. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]  03:48, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd warn you that my personal contact with Spanish speakers has almost entirely been on a working-class level and often with semi-illiterates. But I do watch Spanish moves from Spain quite regularly, and cannot say I have ever heard "ben" instead of "beng". I have a few sources, I will check them in a few hours to see if they comment further. μηδείς (talk) 23:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

IPA & Stress
The above question got me thinking. The phrase 'Come on!' in my dialect has a rising intonation, so the 'on' is pronounced at a higher pitch than the 'come' (though both have rising intonation). Both are more or less equally stressed. As it is only two syllables, I find it strange to mark both of them with stress marks. Would this be normal in IPA? Is there a way to mark stress for the first syllable 'come', and then a stronger stress for the second 'on'? Also, using a computer, how do I mark the intonation itself? KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 ) ( Chin Wag )  11:18, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Intonation (linguistics) demonstrates the use of "arrows" to mark intonation and also gives the Unicode for using these symbols with a computer. I also favor using [ꜛ] to indicate a sharper rise (or comparatively higher pitch) in intonation than a [↗] --William Thweatt TalkContribs 13:00, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm no good at intonation in IPA, but in my dialect, the sarcastic pronunciation of "Come on!" is ['kʌ:-m̩ 'ɔən] which one can imagine Elaine from Seinfeld saying. μηδείς (talk) 22:45, 28 January 2015 (UTC)