Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 July 21

= July 21 =

Etymology of Midwestern United States
Why is the Midwestern United States called the Midwest? It seems to be mostly to the East of the centre of the USA. That article talks about the definition, but there's no explanation of the actual name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.19.115 (talk) 05:56, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Historically, in the United States, the west began at the foot of the Appalachian Mountains (beyond that was French or Indian territory). The west coast and the Rocky Mountains were the Far West and everything in between was the Midwest. Part of this nomenclature has stuck, even though no one would call the Appalachian mountains the west anymore. --Xuxl (talk) 10:41, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * See also Northwest Territory, which at one time was the northwest portion of the USA. It survives in Northwestern Mutual insurance and was the basis for Norwest bank prior to its merger with Wells Fargo. There are other examples of the "old northwest" in Northwestern. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:05, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Also good reads to understand the history of such a term may be Territorial evolution of the United States, American frontier and perhaps even Manifest Destiny, explaining why what was the "west" of the past is not the "west" of today. -- Jayron 32 22:00, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, the state now known as Tennessee was once known as the Southwest Territory, from the same nomenclature as Northwest Territory. -- Jayron 32 22:01, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Northwestern University (Evanston, IL) ... Northwest Airlines (headquartered in Minnesota before it was absorbed by Delta) ... The Victors —football song of the University of Michigan, "Champions of the West" ... I could go on and on ... StevenJ81 (talk) 22:17, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

That having been said, I should modify what User:Xuxl said just a bit. The "Midwest" or "Middle West" didn't become that until the United States was well established in the Rocky Mountains and Pacific. As mentioned above, before then, it was just "the West". StevenJ81 (talk) 22:21, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The perception that The West started at the Appalachians actually persisted for quite some time. Well into the early 20th century, that perception continued.  As noted about the University of Michigan fight song, the "Champions of The West" dates from the late 19th century.  The athletic conference Michigan is a member of, the Big Ten Conference, based in the Midwest, was known as the "Western Conference", during a time period when all of it's schools were in states considered to be "The Midwest" (Ohio in the east to Minnesota & Iowa in the west).  -- Jayron 32 00:35, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You get these anomalies when directions are measured from an important place.  The Eastern, Southern and South Eastern Electricity Boards spread East, South and South East from London, although London is not centrally located.   Same with the railway companies, the Great Eastern, Great Western and Southern Railways.   What intrigues me is why the "Near East" came to be called the "Middle East" and the word "Asiatic" was displaced by "Asian". 86.141.140.204 (talk) 21:08, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
 * When the railways were nationalised, all stations served from Paddington became part of British Railways' Western Region, and Paddington is about thirty miles from the east coast.  I believe "Middle East" displaced "Near East" about the time of the Arab/Israeli conflicts in the sixties and seventies when the area was constantly in the news.   Similarly, at the time of the Falklands war, around 1982, when Argentina was constantly in the news, "Argentine" displaced "Argentinian" and the country was referred to in the French way as "the Argentine". 86.141.140.204 (talk) 12:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Words ending in -cund
I know of fecund, jocund and rubicund. Are there any others? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  06:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh yes, just a few. I assume you want *und words without a preceding vowel. Rotund, Dachsund, bismerpund, bund, cogitabund, contund, cummerdund, cund, defund, Dortmund, effund, errabund, etc. Crossword solver sites are your friends. Richard Avery (talk) 06:32, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * And I assume you want *cund words like you said. From Chamber's: infecund; iracund; secund; verecund. Not fecund; Inclined to become angry, easily angered; (of eg leaves) all turned to or positioned on the same side; Modest. There are 18 in the OED. Do you want them all? Myrvin (talk) 06:38, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, please. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:10, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * See below. There are actually only 17 distinct words because facund has two entries as both noun and adjective.    D b f i r s   07:45, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Wow, this is exactly what I was looking for, in this thread (see my last response ibid.) ! Thank you so much, Richard Avery ! HOOTmag (talk) 07:52, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Other words fitting Jack's request exactly are facund, infecund, godcund, injucund, inverecund, iracund, jucund, namecund, secund, subrubicund, subsecund, verecund and viricund (thanks to the OED for these). Many are obsolete or too rare to deserve a Wiktionary entry.    D b f i r s   06:44, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * But he might be interested in those as well. I like cund: to conduct. For some definitions: subrubicund: seems to mean 'reddish'; subsecund:OED is a bit vague on this. Used, like secund, about the position of leaves and flowers. I've sent the OED an email. Perhaps some botanist out there knows. Myrvin (talk) 09:09, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * An old botanical dictionary gives sub- as "somewhat". So, I guess it means a little bit secund.Myrvin (talk) 09:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Apparently dead and gone are: godcund, spiritual; and namecund famous. I think that's the lot. Myrvin (talk) 09:17, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you need the definitions of the other OED words? Myrvin (talk) 09:31, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't really "need" them, but I definitely want them .... no, on reflection, I need them. Thank you.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:19, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * OK. facund is eloquence (n), eloquent (adj); injucund, Unpleasant, disagreeable; inverecund, unabashed; iracund, Inclined to wrath; choleric, passionate, irascible; jucund, A by-form of jocund...; secund, Arranged on or directed towards one side only; esp. Bot. of the flowers, leaves, or other organs of a plant....; viricund, In a green state..... Did I miss any? Myrvin (talk) 10:32, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Fabulous. You are a guru (or, if you prefer, a namecund godcund master).  Thanks greatly.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  11:12, 21 July 2015 (UTC)]
 * Is "cummerdund" a mispelling of "cummerbund"?
 * In an IQ test one of the questions was "Fill in the blank spaces in the following word: UND-UND (the answer's obvious but people just couldn't get it).   Are there many words which display this pattern?
 * Why are you asking me those questions? The first one is best directed to Richard Avery, who's back there at indent level 1.  The second question is a new thread and deserves its own header.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:06, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Many WP:RD threads that start off as jocund and facund do tend to end up as injucund and irecund. --Shirt58 (talk) 10:45, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Were those your anonymous misplaced questions above, User:Shirt58? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  11:45, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * No, that wasn't me. My only logged-out IP contributions were to the GTHO Phase III page. The fastest four-door car in the world in 1971, and was designed and built in Austraya! 🇦🇺.
 * Pete "Q: you know things about the XY Falcon GT-HO Phase III? Is this possibly a compromised admin account? A: No, this is just Shirt58, he knows about all kinds of random stuff" AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 13:34, 24 July 2015 (UTC)


 * /usr/share/dict/words also has sithcund and gesithcund. —Tamfang (talk) 07:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
 * See and . Also 'sithcundman'.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:57, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That doesn't end in cund! —Tamfang (talk) 04:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

The voiced alveolar raised non-sonorant trill (Czech ř)
Currently the lede of Czech language (third paragraph) has this sentence: I'm not familiar with Czech at all, but I do dabble in Gaelic and that doesn't sound right. The description of Czech "ř" doesn't sound the same as /ɾʲ/ (Irish "slender r") but I didn't want to change the sentence without clarification from somebody who is at least familiar with both Czech and Irish. Since this is the language desk, just leave aside the fact that the sentence as written is ambiguous as to whether it is the consonant or the grapheme that is shared (I know there's no "ř" used in Irish).--William Thweatt TalkContribs 20:37, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * "Words may contain uncommon (or complicated) consonant clusters or lack vowels altogether, including one consonant represented by the grapheme ř which is only shared by Irish Gaelic (slender r as in Eire)"
 * It also doesn't fit my (limited) experience with Czech and Gaelic. Here is the relevant edit; you may want to ask Pan Brerus, who made it. Alveolar trill lists several dialectal occurrences of the phoneme [r̝] (ř), with references, but none of them is Irish. Lesgles (talk) 23:57, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note further that Pan Brerus modified an earlier statement that said that the phoneme was unique to czech; frankly both are dubious in the extreme and, as written, smack rather obviously of original research. If a reliable source isn't forthcoming, the statement ought to be removed altogether.  Good catch by WilliamThweatt.   S n o w  let's rap 08:30, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you both for your responses.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 18:35, 26 July 2015 (UTC)