Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 July 7

= July 7 =

What is the Arabic transcription?
In http://detroitk12.org/resources/parents/docs/Notice_of_Interpretation_and_Translation_Services_for_LEP_Parents-Arabic.pdf - What is the Arabic transcription of the title of the document?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 14:49, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Before the slash, if that is all you want: إشعار لخدمات التفسير والترجمة لآلباء

After the slash: ألوصياء الشرعيين المحدودين والبارعين في إلنجليزية Omidinist (talk) 18:07, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! I needed both pieces of it. I have the title in use here: ar:مدارس ديترويت الحكومية WhisperToMe (talk) 18:57, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The answer by Omidinist is slightly incorrect. Both Google Chrome and Firefox have a bug that makes coping and pasting the text directly not display Arabic characters correctly. I have typed it manually. Before the slash: "إشعار لخدمات التفسير والترجمة للآباء". After the slash: "الأوصياء الشرعيين المحدودين والبارعين في الإنجليزية". --Meno25 (talk) 10:25, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Meno! I corrected the title. The document is listed at ar:مدارس ديترويت الحكومية WhisperToMe (talk) 11:27, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Is "trivia" singular or plural?
Re this edit I just did,, I think I got my grammar right but I'd appreciate confirmation. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 15:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You've only just begun. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:42, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * trivia supports your use of the word as a singular noun. Rojomoke (talk) 16:44, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a more useful way of putting it is that "trivia" is often treated as a mass noun, such as "sand". The same thing happens to some other Latin-derived words, most notably "data".  This tends to happen when the units that make up the mass are small and very numerous.  If "trivia" was genuinely singular, then it would have a plural of its own, "trivias". Looie496 (talk) 16:57, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * As a word, "trivia" is plural, but is used as a collective noun, like "cattle". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:01, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * See Etymological fallacy, which is the mistake you are beginning with to assume that a word like "trivia" must be plural because it used to be plural. English has many words like "data", for example, which in their lLatin roots were at one time the plural versions of words, but which in modern English are singular.  It happens.  That trivia was the plural of the word "trivium" at some point in the past doesn't mean it isn't singular in English today.  -- Jayron 32 01:56, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Excuse me for repeating what I wrote earlier, but "trivia" and "data" are not singular even now. They are treated as mass nouns, similar to "sand" and "water".  If they were singular, they would have plural forms, "trivias" and "datas".  Mass nouns are treated grammatically as singular in most respects -- you say "sand is", not "sand are".  But they have special features. Looie496 (talk) 12:40, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Some of my non-native colleagues have referred to "datas". I don't think "trivias" has come up. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:47, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * For the views of a pundit, look here. There are several examples of "this trivia", although some examples are using trivia as a sort of adjective or as part of a noun-phrase: 'this trivia question'. Chambers says it is a plural noun. Webster's says it can be used as singular or plural, at least for the kids. Myrvin (talk) 08:36, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The OED defines it as "a. With pl. and sing. concord. Trivialities, trifles, things of little consequence.". I don't know what 'concord.' means, but it looks like they reckon it is both. It includes a quotation: "1978  Sunday Times 26 Feb. 33/7   Besides, trivia has its importance too. Or to put it another way, trivia have their importance too." Myrvin (talk) 08:56, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * 'Concord' means grammatical agreement, --ColinFine (talk) 11:56, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks Colin. I thought it was an abbreviation for 'concordance' or something. Myrvin (talk) 12:28, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * "Concord" does mean that, but the way it is typed up and punctuated makes me think it might be 'concord.' short for 'concordant', but that's pretty much a distinction without a difference: . SemanticMantis (talk) 15:38, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks SM - I wondered that too. But it doesn't appear in the OED abbreviations. I've emailed them to ask. Myrvin (talk) 15:43, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a spectrum.  Opera is at one end - it is now a fully - functioning singular with plural "operas".   "Data" is some way along - there is a singular "datum" with it's plural "data" (the data are incorrect).   "Data" can be singular but "datas" has not arrived yet.   There is no singular "trivium" and I am hearing that "trivia" is ambivalent.   We haven't got to "trivias" yet. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 13:38, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * There may be no such words as "datas" and "informations", but I've often heard Indian and European colleagues say those words. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:27, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * In England, the police lay "an information" at the magistrates' court to start a case.  If they make a habit of it they lay "informations".   The Portuguese word for news is informacoes (plural). 87.81.147.76 (talk) 15:27, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That harkens back to the original meaning, which is implicitly singular. It's most often used now as a collective noun, such as information science, information technology, etc. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:36, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That all sounds very quaint. Maybe the police did that in the Victorian era? All decisions for prosecution are now handled by the CPS, e.g. see . I'm not really sure any "informations" are involved. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:43, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You've got me bang to rights there.  I forgot about that change.   But the private citizen can still lay the information if he wants to start a private prosecution. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 15:49, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Really? At a Magistrate's court?? I'd be interested to see a source for that claim. Or does this sort of thing still happen only in Cornwall, perhaps? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:55, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * OED: "Eng. Law. Originally: a complaint or charge presented to a court or magistrate in order to institute (routine) criminal proceedings without formal indictment (now hist.)." Also, "Eng. Law. A complaint presented by the Crown in respect of a civil claim, in the form of a statement of the facts by the Attorney General, either ex officio or on the report of a private individual. ... Now hist." 1954: "The informations against enclosers laid in the Court of Exchequer." Myrvin (talk) 16:12, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't know which country you're from, Martinevans123, but here justice is accessible to all.  A "litigant in person" is free to file a motion in the Court of Appeal, and at the hearing he addresses the bench from immediately in front of their Lordships (a barrister would have to speak from the desks further back).   Anyone could bring a case to the House of Lords but here a barrister had to draft the petition, to keep out hopeless cases.   That judicial function has now been taken over by the Supreme Court (which previously consisted of the High Court and the Court of Appeal) but I doubt the procedure has changed much. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 16:14, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow, we're at the Supreme Court already. What has all this to do with "informations"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:26, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The OED came out in the 1930's didn't it?  That was long before the Crown Prosecution Service was set up.   Dictionaries are produced by lexicographers, not lawyers.   The magistrates issue a summons.   How do you think they get to know what to put in the summons? 87.81.147.76 (talk) 16:25, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The lawyers all love a bit of trad, don't they? All those gowns and wigs. Even solicitors still like to talk about "monies owed". Martinevans123 (talk) 16:31, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That's why fees were expressed in guineas.  They're five percent more than pounds, but they sound less than bills expressed in pounds, shillings and pence. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 16:46, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I should read up on the OED 87. I gave a 1954 quotation from the 2009 edition. It does say 'Now hist'. Myrvin (talk) 16:44, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * If you are a lawyer, you should be able to make sense of another quote: "2001  E. Campbell & H. P. Lee Austral. Judiciary iv. 90   The Rules of the High Court of Australia and of the Supreme Court of Western Australia preserve informations in the nature of quo warranto." Myrvin (talk) 16:47, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Are you from Perth?  See The Criminal Procedure Rules Part 7 para. 7 (2) (note) available at .87.81.147.76 (talk) 17:00, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You must be a lawyer. The rest of us are discussing the use of the word informations, and whether it exists in English. You seem to be worrying about the law. I am confused as to whether you are arguing that the word exists or doesn't. The reference you give has "serve an information in writing on the court officer"; if they do it more than once, they would be serving informations in writing. Myrvin (talk) 17:19, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The singular is "an information".  What makes you think the plural is anything other than "informations"? 87.81.147.76 (talk) 17:31, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Well nothing - that's the point. What are you going on about? Informations exists in English law (and Australian). It IS used in magistrates' courts. It's what you said in the first place. I've merely offered evidence in favour. Myrvin (talk) 17:37, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * What confused me was the way you said it was marked "historical", meaning the word was no longer in common use. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 17:43, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd argue that in the UK it's not in common use at all. Except by Rumpole-type barristers (and by thorough and meticulous wikipedia editors) . But hey, I'm not even in the dock here. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:51, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't think that 'opera', meaning the singing/acting thing, was ever a pure plural. It seems to have started as referring to a 'composition in which poetry, dance, and music are combined’ (OED), so a sort of mass noun maybe(?). Nobody ever referred to a singing/acting thing as an opus, even the Italians, except when referring to the particular work of the composer. However, there was a 'datum' once. Also, a 'trivium' didn't quite mean what we mean by 'trivia', even in its plural form. Myrvin (talk) 16:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The plural of opus is opera, but opera has been used as a singular since the days of the Romans. EO says opera as plural of opus is "seldom used as such". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:20, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The OED and Chambers both give opuses and opera as the plural of opus. You would have to be very careful not to confuse your reader if you mention e.g. "Chopin's opera". Interesting about the Latin - used as a feminine singular. Myrvin (talk) 17:50, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The evolution of language. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:14, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't understand these things, but this may be your feminine singular - plural operae. Myrvin (talk) 08:45, 9 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Then what word do you say the Crown Prosecution Service uses to describe the document it lodges with the Clerk to the Magistrates to open the case? 87.81.147.76 (talk) 18:53, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I hope you're not asking me, as I'm not British. But if they use "information" as a singular, that's more like its original usage, an act of informing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:41, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe the term generally used, in England and Wales, is making a submission e.g. see page 15 of The Code. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:47, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * This and this are two contemporary documents (the Criminal Procedure Rules No article! I think I may know what to do at the weekend and the HSE's guide to prosecution) which use the term "an information".  See Information (formal criminal charge), although that article is rather incomplete. Tevildo (talk) 00:28, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right. That article is rather incomplete. But the new article would be a very useful addition. I see that "an information" is one of two possible routes. Seems this has also been tested: "1. An information is “laid” when it is delivered to the court office – R v Manchester Stipendiary Magistrates, ex p Hill [1983] 1 AC 328." Martinevans123 (talk) 08:52, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Yiddish language
Why do so many Yiddish words start Sch_? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slightnostalgia (talk • contribs) 21:58, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I infer from List of English words of Yiddish origin that many of these words come from German, which has no shortage of words starting with the "sh" sound. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * And possibly reinforced by a goodly number of Hebrew words which also start with the "sh" sound. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Per Bugs, Yiddish is a Germanic language, and as such, has much in common with other Germanic languages, including German, which has many common words that start with that consonant sound. Yiddish is part of the group of languages known as High German languages (known for originating in the uplands of Southern Germany rather than for "high" meaning in other contexts, such as social standing).  I found the article High German consonant shift which notes, among other characteristics of High German languages such as Yiddish, the characteristic shift of "s" and "sk" sounds to "sh" or "sch" (known in IPA as ʃ) which would explain the prevalence of that "sch" phoneme in Yiddish.  -- Jayron 32 01:50, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * In High German dialects, not only does proto-Germanic word-initial [sk-] become [ʃ-] (which is also true in English in words such as ship or show), but in other consonant clusters, [s-] becomes [ʃ-]. For example, the German cognate of swim is schwimmen, and the German cognate of stink is stinken, where st- is pronounced [ʃt-]. Marco polo (talk) 13:23, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * These clusters are: initial sl (schlafen - sleep), sm (schmieren - smear), sn (Schnee - snow), sp (Sport - sport), st (stehen - stand), sw (schwellen - swell) (cf. the sound shift in late Middle High German/Early New High German). sp and st are pronounced [ʃp] and [ʃt] (exception: some loanwords).--92.214.193.98 (talk) 15:16, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I would add:
 * For German-origin words, transliteration of Yiddish into English tends to come back through German. That's why so many of these words tend to English-language spelling of "sch" rather than "sh".
 * Interestingly, the German "st-" common words generally went to "sht-" ("shtick"), not to "scht-". However, proper names based on the same kept their spelling, and are generally now pronounced [st-] in English (Stern, Stein, and their many derivatives).
 * A lot of words where [ʃ-] precedes a vowel also went to "sh-". Many of these actually have a Hebrew/Aramaic origin, though the term itself might only exist in Yiddish ("shiksa").
 * StevenJ81 (talk) 19:54, 13 July 2015 (UTC)