Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 June 20

= June 20 =

Latin translation help
Hi, can anyone come up with a Latin translation of "Situation normal, all f***ed up"? It is for a spoof motto, so it needs to sound "pithy", and if the vulgarity of "f***ed up" can be captured then even better. Google Translate is giving me "Normalis situ, omnes ..." but it won't translate the last part. Anyway, I do not fully trust Google Translate (though it would be good to retain the recognisability of "normalis" and "situ" if that part is actually correct). 109.152.147.80 (talk) 03:04, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Am I misunderstanding your question? You want Google Translate to translate "Situation normal, all f***ed up" into Latin.  They did translate the first half ("Situation normal, all"), but they did not translate the second half ("f***ed up").  Is that the case?  Do you really think that there is a Latin for the "F" word?  I highly doubt it.  If I were trying to translate that part of the phrase into Latin, I would use some equivalents like "all messed up", "all screwed up", "all in disarray", "all in error", etc.  Those words will have Latin translations.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:34, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * What makes you think the Romans didn't cuss just as much as we do? The etymology section of our article Fuck points to the Latin noun Futuo as a possible origin. The correct conjugation/declension I leave to the Classics scholars among us. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:45, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Latin had a ton of vulgar words, we even have an article about Latin profanity. I don't think a form of "futuo" really works here, though. "Fuck" in English has become too versatile, and really defies being translated literally. I'm sure there's a way to express this in Latin, just not with "futuo". Adam Bishop (talk) 10:23, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * On the contrary, I think a literal translation would be quite acceptable given that the purpose is a "spoof motto" on the lines of "Semper in excretum sed alta variat". Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:52, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, then how about "perfututus", since our Latin profanity article notes that it means "totally fucked". That's meant in a good way in Latin, but it's still pretty rude. There are lots of ways to say "situation" and "normal", but we could say "status ordinarius, perfututus". Adam Bishop (talk) 12:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * My point was that Latin may (and probably did) have a word for "sexual intercourse", but not for the "f***cked up" phrase that the OP was inquiring about. If the OP wants to translate "this is all f***cked up" into Latin, he would go the route of Latin phrases that mean:  "all messed up", "all screwed up", "all in disarray", "all in error", etc.  Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:39, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Quam damnatus est--Jondel (talk) 14:25, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

The meaning of "When was it not?"
Would you please teach me the meaning of "When was it not?" in the following passage? He had always hated Sean Walsh. Benny wondered could it have been about him. "The problem is Sean, you see," she began tentatively. "When was it not?" Dr. Johnson asked. "If the mother was in the shop and properly there, taking notice..." "Yes I know." "Do you think she'll ever be able to do that? Or am I just running     after a pipe dream."---Meave Binchy, Circle Of Friends, p.411. 153.130.204.41 (talk) 03:31, 20 June 2015 (UTC)yumoko


 * It means Sean has always been a problem. As in "When was Sean not the problem ?  I can't think of a time". StuRat (talk) 03:45, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, I was just going to add essentially what StuRat said. Dr. Johnson asked, "Yes, of course, the problem is Sean.  When was Sean not the problem?"  Or, perhaps, more formally and more stiff: "When was it the case that Sean was not the problem?"  So, Dr. Johnson is saying Sean has always been the problem.  Exactly as StuRat above stated.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:38, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * A good example of the tendency, in English at least, to respond with incomplete sentences because the subject is understand. A common example in my part of America: "I'm going to the store." "Can I come with?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Is that an improvement on "Can I come?" Widneymanor (talk) 09:06, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Valleyspeak? Sleigh (talk) 09:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * It's a variation. Like this one: "I've got a new radio. Should I take with?" And I dunno about Valspeak. I've heard it in the Midwest for a long time. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:56, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I think it comes into English from German or Yiddish or both. Darf ich mitkommen? Ja, komm mit. Perhaps spread by the movies, because it sounds more American than British. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:55, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Could be. There are a lot of German descendants in the Midwest. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:02, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I've always believed it to be a peculiarity of South African English, glad to see we're not alone! Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:58, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I've heard a few people use that construction in the UK, but I suspect that they've been watching too many Hollywood films. Alansplodge (talk) 18:24, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Is there any safe exposure level to Hollywood films ? What's the LD50 ?  StuRat (talk) 22:10, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

King & Royal animals
Does the "Royal" in Royal tiger and the "King" in King cobra or King crab bear the same connotations - of the animal being honored as the "king" of its likes? What about the Kingfishers? --KnightMove (talk) 20:17, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * "King" often means they are larger than similar species. In the case of the king penguin they needed a name for an even larger one, so we got the emperor penguin.  Our kingsnake article says "The 'king' in the name (as with the king cobra) references its eating of other snakes."


 * "Royal" might well refer to them having once been a royal possession. Or, either term could mean they have a rather fancy appearance.  Since many different people came up with the names, there's no reason to expect consistency.StuRat (talk) 22:16, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * "King salmon" is an alternate name for the Chinook salmon, which is the largest and most prized of the salmon species. All king salmon on the market is wild caught, and widely considered superior in taste to farm raised Atlantic salmon. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  05:37, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * As is noted at the end of Kingfisher, the name was originally "King's fisher" for obscure reasons. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Royal jelly turns a regular bee into a legitimate and rightful queen bee, who actually rules. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Russian question
I have heard very many Russian speakers say something that sounds like "Whop shee" (with the first word rhyming with "cup" as in "cup of coffee"). I'm not at all sure about the spelling, as I don't understand anything of the Russian grammar and the pronunciation is far too different from Finnish. Does anyone have any idea what this could mean? J I P &#124; Talk 20:39, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I suspect you're hearing various verb and adjective endings rather than a single distinct word. There are lots of endings that could sound vaguely like that: for example verb forms ending with -овший -ovshiy, -овши -ovshi, -евший -evshiy, -евши -evshi, -овавший -ovavshiy, -овавши -ovavshi, -вующий -vuyuschiy, adjective forms -овский -ovskiy, -евский -evskiy.  If you really are hearing one word, it could be общий obschiy meaning general, common, public.  (This one has audio pronunciation on wiktionary.)  --Amble (talk) 21:55, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I was interpreting JIP's "shee" as /ʃiː/, seems others may have interpreted it as /ʃe/. JIP, could you clarify which you meant? --Amble (talk) 16:19, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Your interpretation is correct. I was trying to spell it as an English word, as this is the English Wikipedia. I'm aware that both in my native Finnish and in IPA the sound is written as "i" rather than "e". J I P  &#124; Talk 20:55, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


 * (ec) The word обще (obshche) means "generally". Users  and  may have a better suggestion if that is not it. Standard Russian has no w or h sound, so a word would be very unlikely to start with an English wh- which indicates an /hw/ sequence in those who distinguish it from /w/.  μηδείς (talk) 22:01, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I have no particular new suggestions. I'd need to hear it in context to have a real idea.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Вообще́ / voobš́é is usually pronounced as ва(а)пще́  /vɐ(ː)pˈʃe/ or even ва(а)ще́  /vɐ(ː)ˈʃe/. It has various meanings (see any dictionary), often it's like a sort of an interjection or particle.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:07, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That sounds extremely likely, see google for possible English translations (Russian vo means "in"). μηδείς (talk) 03:45, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

If we want to find out what JIP is hearing, perhaps he could find an example on Youtube that sounds like the "Whop shee" he's hearing? --Amble (talk) 16:13, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * See and hear http://forvo.com/search/вообще/. Wavelength (talk) 19:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It might be particularly efficient to look for it in a political discussion show. Since 4 or 5 people all talk at once, you have 4 or 5 times as many chances to find what you're listening for. --Amble (talk) 00:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Commissary gallery
What is a "commissary gallery" and did they have them in Biblical times? Where does this name come from? 86.156.248.178 (talk) 20:42, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * A quick search gives the immediate source of the phrase as "Po' Lazarus" by James Carter and the Prisoners, as featured in O Brother, Where Art Thou? This might be of assistance to anyone who can track it down further. Tevildo (talk) 23:14, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The commissary in this case is a prison commissary. See Prison and Mamertine Prison for some material on prisons in Roman times; it's unlikely that they had a separate building where the prisoners were fed, but this is speculation on my part. Tevildo (talk) 00:31, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The context of the lyrics makes it unlikely that it is a prison commissary that is being referred to. The song was an African-American spiritual first recorded over half a year ago by musicologist Alan Lomax. I found a website that interprets the lyrics as coded language describing the death of Jesus. That website says the phrase means "porch". I believe that the second word "gallery" means "porch". I think "commissary" in this context means something like "restaurant" or "soup kitchen" but that is just a hunch. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  05:51, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Over half a year?! If you listen to this performance by The Fairfield Four (who are in O Brother, Where Art Thou? with a different song, I think) you will hear one of the group explaining the word as "porch" and getting a laugh from the audience. In the film the song is used as a work song. So the Lazarus in the title is not the Biblical one, but it would have been a popular slave name. As Tevildo says, it seems it was a common word in 1930s US: "In 1930 the U.S. Department of Justice authorized and established a Commissary at each Federal institution." We'd never use that word in UK, much like "penitentiary", etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * [ec] Um - that's what a prison commissary is. I agree that it's fairly obvious to give the song a Christian interpretation, but the superficial story is about an American fugitive criminal, who is shot "with a forty-five" - a prison would be a reasonable place to display such a criminal's body. See also Pilate's court and Ecce Homo, although I doubt if such a conscious allusion was intended by the song's author.  Perhaps a more scholarly reference about the song itself can be found somewhere? Tevildo (talk) 09:18, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was convinced by the two mountains (Matthew 27:38), the pains in his side (John 19:34) and the mother grieving over her only son. But I wasn't sure about the "big number" (45), and the commissary gallery seems very far removed from the garden tomb of Joseph of Arimathea? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:37, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


 * From various books, it doesn't look like commissary refers to a prison - here it says "he stuck up the commissary and got away with the payroll", here it says "complex versions begin with him robbing the commissary of the company he worked for", here he "broke into the commissary". It is unlikely that someone would rob a prison. Hzh (talk) 10:34, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That looks like a good source, and the use of that word is intriguing. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:42, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This might be it - Commissary (store). Hzh (talk) 14:14, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I see that Pinn, in one of your sources, has Po' Laz'rus, after he's been killed, laid on the commissary counter rather than the "gallery" or porch. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:19, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Another source (Wells) also says "counter" (lower down it says "commissary table"), but I have no idea if this means that "commissary gallery" means "store counter", or there are different versions of the lyrics. Hzh (talk) 17:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd have thought that a porch area was more suitable for a dead body, unless the Sheriff and his men were particularly keen on irony. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:53, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * According to the book by Wells, he wasn't dead, but was left to die on the counter. The book says he was begging for water but the rich man refused. The lyrics by James Carter also suggest he wasn't dead when placed on the commissary gallery, since he said "my wounded side, lord, lord, my wounded side". Hzh (talk) 18:14, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * dead body Unsavory small talk. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:09, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Spanish for Mr.
I'm watching a film that is in (Colombian) Spanish with English subtitles. In most (if not all) cases where the subtitles say Mr. x , the word spoken in place of Mr. sounds like "doktor" with a long first O. None of the referenced individuals are medical doctors, it's unlikely they are all PhD's, and, if they were, the subtitles would say Dr. instead of Mr.. I would have expected the spoken word to be "señor". Can anyone explain what's going on here? &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  23:31, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * It will help if you can give the name of the film and a time stamp. Plus, subtitles often ignore much of what is being said, even when there is an exact match in English for the foreign word. μηδείς (talk) 03:42, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


 * "Pablo Escobar, el patrón del mal", a TV series available via Netflix streaming. Two good examples seconds apart at about 11:20 (32:10 remaining) in Episode 37. Per the subtitles, the dialogue is as follows:
 * Woman: Wait, mister...?
 * Man: Sabogal.
 * Woman: Mr. Sabogal.
 * The woman says the doktor-like word twice, in place of mister and Mr. The man is not a doctor or a PhD and the woman has no reason to believe that he might be. The series has numerous other examples of the same, involving other people. Re subtitles often ignore much of what is being said, this is not about subtitles ignoring something, but rather the spoken dialogue not making sense in the context &mdash; unless "doctor" is idiomatic for "mister" in some Spanish-speaking cultures. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  04:49, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I wonder if we are dealing with some type of slang. At one point in the US it was common slang to call anyone smart "professor", regardless of their education level or job.  StuRat (talk) 17:42, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I have not heard the term, but that doesn't mean it's not used, there is not a large Columbian community in NYC. Slang is a strong possibility, especially if the person is a fixer or an expert of some sort--hence an affectation his part to insist on being called doctor. Urban Dictionary doesn't help, although it says "doctor" means drug dealer in the Eagle's song "Life in the Fast Lane" (this explanation seems improbable to me). I don't have Netflix, and Dailymotion has some episodes, but only in the #90's-110's range. μηδείς (talk) 17:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, and that might explain why the subtitles didn't include the term, if the person writing them was unfamiliar with this slang. As for why they chose to include that term in the audio, despite it not being broadly understood, I imagine it's to be more "authentic".  StuRat (talk) 17:20, 22 June 2015 (UTC)


 * None of these theories fit the facts, but thanks for trying so hard. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  19:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I feel like I am stepping into a minefield with each mine labeled "The Obvious." Nevertheless, I wasn't sure if anyone had mentioned the Spanish-language title "Don" (which is slightly better known among anglophone communities from its use in the Italian language as well, spelled the same, and both coming from the Latin word for "master", I believe) -- and also the fact that (again an Italian connection) "Dottore" (the literal translation of "Doctor") is a common title in Italy for any person deserving of professional respect, regardless of whether the person has an advanced graduate degree (to use American parlance)...perhaps the latter is also used in some Spanish speaking countries as well (using doctor instead of Italian dottore).--67.244.30.139 (talk) 05:36, 23 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Hearing "Don" as "doctor" seems like a stretch, but maybe when somebody used to saying "dottore" tries to say "doctor", it would sound as described. StuRat (talk) 18:09, 24 June 2015 (UTC)