Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 March 13

= March 13 =

Elder/older
Is the sentence He had an elder brother correct? Or should it always be He had an older brother? And why? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:56, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * As you're talking about a person, you can use either. Bazza (talk) 10:11, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I've been reverted in the past by someone who insisted that "elder" is correct and "older" isn't. My view is that, as "older" is more likely to be understood by more readers, it's preferable in articles.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:16, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Certainly elder has many meanings, although the context will probably nearly always give the intended meaning. Does "elder brother" imply he is the elder of (only) two? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * When comparing two live people, the elder is by definition older than the younger, but that changes when one party dies. Older pertains to the relative ages of live people. The age of a dead person stops increasing the moment they die.  Elder pertains to birth order, which can never change.  Example: My elder brother was originally older than me, but he died when he was aged five and I was aged two.  Three years after he died, I turned five and caught up to him.  I am now aged 38, much older than he will ever be, but he will always be my elder brother simply because he was born before me.  (Not a real example). --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:41, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Jack. That makes sense. So it sounds as if older is specific to a given point in time, while elder is the more general term which applies for all times? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:17, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * There's probably something to Jack's usage, however for most modern speakers of English, the two are used in such free variation that I doubt that anyone recognizes the difference. I would call it an WP:ENGVAR issue, which means that people shouldn't change from one usage to the other, unless it is clearly wrong.  Calling someone an "older brother" as a phrase should be exactly equivalent to calling someone an "elder brother", excepting for the very specific phrasing Jack uses, which wouldn't come up much.  -- Jayron 32 15:18, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that not all speakers will notice the possible distinction, but I think Jack's example and description also fits well with historical figures and the names we refer to them by: e.g. pliny the elder and pliny the younger. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:38, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Jack's comment is correct, and the fact that there are people who speak sloppily is not a reason for writing sloppily at wikipedia.


 * As a side note, I just read "if you would of read" last night in a comment on a column (where the same person starts off calling someone "asinine" and "stupid"!) and "if he'd have said" in the text of an opinion article the night before last. μηδείς (talk) 16:57, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Jeez! I was thinking about this last night. I mean, about the elder and older issue.  Miss Bono  [hello, hello!]  18:12, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Inheritance is where this mattered most, traditionally. The earliest-born surviving son would get the title and the bulk of the estate. Of course, he would also be the oldest surviving son, but it wasn't his age per se that made him the beneficiary, but the fact that he was born before any of his brothers.  Maybe a subtle distinction, but not an unimportant one.  It certainly mattered in the case of twin brothers born the same day; legally they were always the same age throughout their lives (until the first one died), but the first-born was also legally senior.  He was the elder, despite not being older (except if we're counting lifespans in minutes and seconds).
 * Also, politeness demanded that one never enquire about another's age. If your friend introduced you to his brother, you could later ask your friend whether the brother were his elder brother, but you would never ask whether he were his older brother.  (I know, it's an identical question in practical terms, but these things mattered and are what made Britain great.) You could avoid the pitfall by asking if he were his younger brother, because younger is the opposite of both elder and older.  But then, you'd risk offending your friend by suggesting he were older than his brother when he may in fact be younger.  But then, if the friend were a true friend, he'd assume good faith and know that you were enquiring solely about birth order, and most certainly not about age relativity.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:40, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Here's an example of taking politeness to an extreme: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:30, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Or, if you were a Wikipedian, you might say "Please provide further information about your birth order." Martinevans123 (talk) 13:48, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Origin of the phrase, 'dead ass'
So, whilst riding the train I heard a phrase I haven't heard or used since I was a teenager, that being 'dead ass'. I never thought about it back then, but now it just sounds like an odd phrase to adult me, and it's one for which I can't imagine the actual origin. It's short for 'dead ass serious', but why dead ass? I know the expressions 'dead serious,' but when and how did an ass enter the equation? Anyone know the origin? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 22 Adar 5775 13:14, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It's an intensifier in Americanese. Like in Br.Eng we would say 'dead fucking serious'.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  14:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Some British people might say "rather serious" or "quite dry". lol Martinevans123 (talk) 14:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, well, we do seem to be civilized enough to not shout "Oh My God!" at just about everything we see.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  15:02, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sir William, I don't know if you're familiar with the academic blog 'Language Log', but I recall that a recent-ish post there (and the subsequent comments) dealt extensively with the use of the word "ass" (in British English, "arse") in such colloquialisms. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 14:04, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Funny thing. I just overheard a dude saying into his phone that when he was a kid he was a "badass dude". I too wondered about that particular meaning. Bus stop (talk) 14:10, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * In Americanese it means he has a strong character. In Br.Eng it would either mean he has something wrong with his backside (bottom), or has a badly behaved donkey, neither of which I would recommend bragging about.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  14:35, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * In American English, "ass" is often used as a colloquial intensifier. The Wikipedia article on Intensifier even notes the usages "sweet-ass" and "cold-ass".  Here's a journal article "Serious-ass morphology: The anal emphatic in English" which discusses the usage.  Here is Language Log's take on its usage.  Here is another article on the subject.  I hope all that helps.  -- Jayron 32 15:15, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sadly, that "Serious-ass morphology" seems to only link to an abstract, not a full paper. I looked around a bit and found only this, which seems to be a shady pay wall that might very well just give me the same pdf of paper abstracts... but if anyone can find the full paper, that would be nice (such a great title too!) SemanticMantis (talk) 15:35, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Surely you mean "such a hot ass title too!" Martinevans123 (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * These linguists seem to have all the fun, here's "|The Nonliteral, Non-gluteal, Semi-referential, Off-standard, Synecdochic, Supermetonymic, Paradoxical, Existential, Ever-lovin Ass". Still behind a paywall, but at least many academics will have access to Wiley journals. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:08, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Relevent XKCD comic Iapetus (talk) 11:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, badass doesn't just mean "having a strong character". It suggests a strong character, but specifically a somewhat amoral, reckless, and possibly dangerous character. Marco polo (talk) 18:45, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It depends. Someone once called me "a badass word guy", and it brought a tear to my eye.  (Torn eyes are a bitch to sew up.  :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:09, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the first construction of this sort was "half-assed" (or "half-arsed" to we Britons) which Etymology Online dates to 1935 and suggests was "...perhaps a humorous mispronunciation of haphazard." Alansplodge (talk) 20:20, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have never met anyone who had a single buttock. But then, also in Br.Eng, we say "can't be arsed", to mean "can't be bothered". I'm not sure how it is possible to actually 'arse' somebody.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  20:48, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You seem to have led a very sheltered life, KageTora. I would explain, but I've got fundamental "wiki-seebs". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:54, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * No idea what 'wiki-seebs' are. Perhaps you can enlighten me.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  21:12, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Monty Python introduced the world to a man who claimed to have three buttocks, but he refrained from giving a visual demonstration for fear of offending the radio audience. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:14, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, "ceebs". Martinevans123 (talk) 21:20, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Right, at first I thought you were referring to Cbeebies.  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  22:06, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "meh" Martinevans123 (talk) 10:34, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * This book on slang "The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English" dates the adverb meaning absolutely of dead-ass to 1971 in the US and it had slightly earlier usages an adjective meaning lack of energy (US 1958) or the noun seated buttocks in repose (US 1950). --Modocc (talk) 21:48, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * How close does this come to "deadbeat"? (.. as you fellows have it, over in the Colonies, chortle) Martinevans123 (talk) 21:53, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Etymonline says: ""worthless sponging idler," 1863, American English slang, perhaps originally Civil War slang, from dead (adj.) + beat. Earlier used colloquially as an adjectival expression to mean "completely beaten" (1821), and perhaps the base notion is of "worn out, good for nothing." It is noted in a British source from 1861 as a term for "a pensioner."In England "dead beat" means worn out, used up. ... But here, "dead beat" is used, as a substantive, to mean a scoundrel, a shiftless, swindling vagabond. We hear it said that such a man is a beat or a dead beat. The phrase thus used is not even good slang. It is neither humorous nor descriptive. There is not in it even a perversion of the sense of the words of which it is composed. Its origin is quite beyond conjecture. ["Americanisms," in "The Galaxy," January 1878]. It also was used of a kind of regulating mechanism in pendulum clocks."  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  21:57, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Since this is the language desk, I hope it is in order to object to the annoying and completely redundant use of "So" at the very start of this thread. Somebody needs to fight against this creeping malaise. 86.152.163.88 (talk) 21:02, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It is not Wikipedia's purpose to "right great wrongs". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:21, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "Completely redundant" is an example of complete redundancy. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:16, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You can say that again. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Ah wow, sorry I didn't reply sooner as I was somewhat overwhelmed by the number of replies so quickly. Thanks for hunting up all that info, guys, it was both enlightening and hilarious in equal measure. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 27 Adar 5775 22:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

ISIS flag
The flag of the ISIS appears to have some Arabic writing. I don't know any Arabic, I can't even read the writing. What does it say? J I P &#124; Talk 18:18, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The words on the top are the beginning of the shahada, and the part in the white oval is the seal of Muhammad. ---Sluzzelin talk  18:31, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The writing on the top says "La illah l'illah" ("There is no god but God"); as the previous poster says, this is the beginning of the "shahada", or "witness", the creed of Islam - you say this to affirm that you have made submission (which is what the word "islam" means) to God and accepted the message of his prophet Mohammed. The writing in the white shield says "Allah Rasul Mohammed" ("God Prophet Mohammed"). PiCo (talk) 07:30, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The second one is read from bottom to top, here from right to left (محمد رسول الله) meaning "Muhammad is God's prophet". Omidinist (talk) 19:05, 15 March 2015 (UTC)