Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 March 20

= March 20 =

anap(a)estilence
I have difficulty coming up with trisyllabic English words whose primary stress is on the final syllable. Magazine and Japanese (or anyway in my pronunciation, though I know  ma gazine is common and would not be surprised to hear  Ja panese), and, er, that's it. But maga zine  doesn't sound at all exotic to me, and I therefore suspect that there's a minor swarm of such words, which for some odd reason I just can't think of. &para; Of course I can easily come up with Balinese, journalese and so on; but I'm not at all sure that I (let alone others) don't give primary stress to the first syllable, and even if I stress the last one they'd be uninterestingly close to Japanese. As for compounds, New Orleans (if not disyllabic "Nawlins") is OK too, but people may argue (however wrongly) that it's not a word. Tips for lexical anap(a)ests with the primary stress on a vowel other than /i/ would be particularly welcome. -- Hoary (talk) 02:10, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * To start with, there are a bunch of -eer or -ier words like that: brigadier, fusilier, racketeer, balladeer. Also consider smithereens, and for a different accented vowel sound, macaroon and the fictitious Brigadoon. --65.94.50.15 (talk) 02:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you, O anonym. There's certainly stress on the third syllable in each of those; but in my own (atypical?) English, the primary stress in three of the examples is on the first syllable and I'm not confident about the other examples. -- Hoary (talk) 04:42, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Suffragette. Picayune.  Mayonnaise.  Bolognaise.  Polonaise.  Re-employ.  Disregard.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  04:47, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Cigarette & maisonette. Basically any word ending in -ette is a candidate. KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 04:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thank you both. -- Hoary (talk) 06:12, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * acquiesce, adios, afrikaans, afternoon, antitrust, anymore, apprehend, apropos, ascertain, attache, baronet, bourgeoisie, cabaret, cabernet, cavalier, chandelier, chaparral, chevrolet, circumvent, clarinet, clientele, coalesce, coexist, coincide, colonnade, commandant, comprehend, concierge, connoisseur, contradict, convalesce, correspond, debonair, decompose, denouement, diagnose, doctrinaire, dossier, entertain, entourage, esplanade, expertise, faberge, fiance, figurine, grandiose, guarantee, halloween, illinois, immature, infrared, introduce, kangaroo, katmandu, l'oreal, marguerite, marianne, masquerade, minaret, minuet, montreal, mozambique, nonchalant, nonetheless, organelle, palisade, perrier, persevere, personnel, potpourri, promenade, questionnaire, raconteur, rapprochement, rationale, recommend, reminisce, repartee, represent, resurrect, saboteur, serenade, sobriquet, souvenir, statuesque, submarine, supersede, tambourine, tangerine, tennessee, trampoline, vietnam, violin, (deep breath) absentee, addressee, appointee, devotee, licensee, nominee, referee, refugee, disagree, disallow, disappear, disappoint, disapprove, disarray, disavow, disbelief, disconnect, discontent, disengage, disinclined, disobey, dispossessed, disregard, disrepair, disrepute, disrespect, incomplete, incorrect, indirect, indiscreet, indistinct, inexact, inhumane, insincere, misapplied, misconceived, misconstrued, misinformed, prearranged, preconceived, predisposed, premature, preordained, reabsorb, reacquire, readjust, reaffirm, realign, reappear, reappoint, reappraise, rearrange, reassert, reassess, reassign, reassure, recombine, reconfirm, reconstruct, reconvene, redefine, redeploy, redesign, redirect, redisplay, reemerge, reenact, reignite, reimburse, reimpose, reinforce, reinstate, reinvent, reinvest, repossess, reproduce, resubmit, resupply, reunite, unabashed, unabridged, unaddressed, unadorned, unafraid, unannounced, unapproved, unashamed, unattached, unaware, unbeknownst, unconcealed, unconcerned, unconfined, unconfirmed, unconstrained, uncontrolled, unconvinced, undeclared, undefined, undeserved, undeterred, undisclosed, undisguised, undisturbed, unemployed, unexplained, unexplored, unforeseen, unfulfilled, unimpaired, unimpressed, unimproved, uninformed, uninsured, uninvolved, unopposed, unperturbed, unprepared, unprovoked, unredeemed, unrefined, unreleased, unrelieved, unremarked, unresolved, unrestrained, unsecured, unsubscribed, unsurpassed, untoward, interact, intercede, intercept, interfere, interject, interrupt, intersect, interspersed, intertwined, intervene, overblown, overflowed, overjoyed, overruled, oversize, overstayed, overtaxed, overthrew, overworked, undercooked, underfoot, undergo, underlie, underneath, underserved, understand, undertake, underway, underwrote.
 * (Found with grep and the CMU Pronouncing Dictionary.) -- BenRG (talk) 06:35, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Ace! CMU I know, grep I know, but I'm ashamed to say that I'd not heard of the CMU Pronouncing Dictionary. I'll have to investigate. -- Hoary (talk) 07:00, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * And your next challenge is to write a short story using all of those words. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 13:37, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * That is a great resource Ben, thanks! SemanticMantis (talk) 14:45, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Need help verifying Japanese
Hi, if you read Japanese, could you please check this edit to verify if the change this IP user made is appropriate? Their edit summary is not helpful. Much obliged, and please ping me if you need me. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:18, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Unless there is some explained reason to deviate, I would be inclined to go with the spellings in the ja version here, which (though I haven't checked all of them) seem to match the original English version rather than the edited one. 109.153.236.190 (talk) 01:15, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * All but one of the changes are to Japanese script. These faithfully transliterate from hiragana to katakana. I have no opinion either on the correctness of the hiragana or on the relative appropriateness of hiragana versus katakana, but the transliteration (whatever its desirability) seems error-free. -- Hoary (talk) 01:35, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * As long as it was not something vulgar or shenanigan-y, I'm good. Thanks much! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:43, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You can also check against the (I assume) official character profiles at http://www.sanrio.co.jp/special/sugarbunnies/profile.html (let the animation run through to the end if the names are too quick to read). Again, it seems that the original English article was correct, though again I have not checked all of them. (In case not clear, the edit to the English article changed hiragana to katakana, which, extremely loosely speaking, is a bit like changing lower-case to upper-case, in the sense that both still make sense, but there may be conventions about which to use. When naming fictitious characters, I believe the creator can basically write the names in whichever style they like, but the article should follow the creator's choice.) 109.153.236.190 (talk) 01:48, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Commas, maybe?
This sentence hurts my head: "Hwang Kee was inspired to develop his own martial art after having witnessed as a child a man defend himself using the martial art Tae Kyon against a large group of men." (from the article Moo Duk Kwan) I am not even certain a liberal sprinkling of commas can solve all of its problems. Any suggestions? Rmhermen (talk) 17:30, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * After watching a man defend himself against a large group using the martial art Tae Kyon as a child, Hwang Kee was inspired to develop his own martial art.--Thomprod (talk) 17:34, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * As a child, Hwang Kee witnessed a man using tae kyon to defend himself against a large group. The experience inspired him to develop his own martial art. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  17:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * If he developed the martial art as an adult (do kids develop martial arts?), perhaps the word "later" should be inserted between "experience" and "inspired". &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  18:04, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I used Mandruss' version. Thanks. Rmhermen (talk) 03:23, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Plural of poet laureate
Is it poets laureate or poet laureates or even poets laureates? Even the official sites don't agree... --188.102.45.249 (talk) 22:27, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * According to our article, it's "poets laureate". "Laureate" is an adjective, and English adjectives do not have number.  However, "poet laureates" is what most people are likely to actually say. Tevildo (talk) 00:39, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * All true, but I'm surprised to find that "poets laureate" is what they're more likely to write (for dead-tree publication). -- Hoary (talk) 01:40, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not surprised at all, and I'm comfortable with poets laureate, as I am with attorneys general, sergeants at arms, etc. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  02:25, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I call on Tevildo's "poet laureates" is what most people are likely to actually say .  The people who write "poets laureate" still outnumber the "poet laureates" crew 2 to 1, despite some narrowing of the gap since 1950.  Why would anyone who knows the proper way of pluralising the term say and write it in different ways?  I suggest Tevildo is moving in the wrong circle (which is also the minority circle), and he should make the appropriate social adjustment asap and start mingling with folks what know how to talk gooder.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:30, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * You'll have to excuse Jack; he gets hards on for these kind of debates. Matt Deres (talk) 21:05, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * You know me too well, Tevildo. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:01, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I'd use "poet laureates", because the other way sounds way too formal. And, you could omit "poet(s)" and just say "laureates", right ?  So, we've established that "laureate" can be made plural, then.  And note that "laureate" is a noun, when used in this context: .  The adjective would apply to the meaning "literally wreathed with laurel". StuRat (talk) 22:27, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think "Nobel laureate" and "poet laureate" are the same sense of "laureate". That's like saying "attorney generals" is ok because "general" is a noun. I'll leave it to someone more educated to say why with the correct terminology. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  22:39, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Personally, I say that "attorney generals" and "poet laureates" are correct because the pluralizing S ending in English becomes a clitic in such expressions. But in the end correctness is a matter of opinion. --65.94.50.15 (talk) 23:14, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * It should be "attorneys general" and "poets laureate" because the people concerned are attorneys and poets resp. They are not generals, which is a rank in the army. Similarly for " directors general", whose job is that of director! not general. But in the (UK) army, the plural of major general, lieutenant general and lieutenant colonel is major generals, lieutenant generals and lieutenant colonels because the people concerned are generals ( not majors or lieutenants ). Widneymanor (talk) 10:38, 22 March 2015 (UTC)←


 * Arguments from logic are really of very little value in discussions about language. If you are concerned with "correct", then that is a purely social judgment, and is essentially arbitrary (though there is often a logical rationalisation given). If you are concerned about how the language actually is, then the only effective method to determine this is to examine how it is used and understood. --ColinFine (talk) 23:29, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


 * It's true that languages evolve, and what is considered correct today may not be considered correct in the year 2115. But that doesn't mean that correctness is an invalid concept. If it were, this thread and all threads like it (which comprise a large part of what is discussed on this page) would lack any legitimacy. I believe that poets laureate is more widely considered correct today, especially by sources widely regarded as authoritative. I'm open to being corrected on that. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  23:47, 22 March 2015 (UTC)