Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 March 25

= March 25 =

Seven deadly sins - multilingual!
A friend told me that he's planning to get a tattoo with the seven deadly sins, in various languages. Having seen the horror that can come from bad translations and transcriptions, I advised him to get advice. Could you please help me check them? I'm interested in:
 * Correct spelling
 * Suitable word choice: suitably serious/biblical tone.
 * Font choice danger (what letters look similar to others in fanciful fonts? Are certain diacritics or similar marks crucial to meaning?)

Hebrew

 * Superbia: גאוותנות
 * Avaritia: תאוות בצע
 * Luxuria: תאווה
 * Ira: זעם
 * gula: זוֹלְלוּת זללנות
 * Invidia: קנאה
 * Acedia: עצלנות


 * Just for the sake of clarity: This list has now been adjusted directly by a Hebrew speaker (diff). ---Sluzzelin talk  13:03, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * ...and revised again due to afterthought, but I still stand by my statement below (third bullet). -- Deborahjay (talk) 19:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The entry for Gula is inconsistent with the others, as it has a couple of vowels in it, when the others are unpointed. Worse, one of the two vowels present (the chirik under the lamed) is just incorrect (should be a shva, if you want vowels). --Dweller (talk) 13:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Be aware that Hebrew can be written in Hebrew block or Hebrew script, both of which have a multiplicity of fonts. In either script and in any font, some letters look similar and can be rendered incorrectly by someone unskilled, changing what you write to gibberish or something with a different meaning. --Dweller (talk) 13:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Be likewise aware that the Hebrew language is associated with Judaism which sticks with the Ten Commandments, the Torah, and all the centuries of interpretation and their unending study - making this exercise in finding Hebrew-language equivalents for the Latin largely a travesty. Is this some sort of reverse cultural appropriation? People: getting a "correct translation" doesn't make this authentic. It's fundamentally bogus. -- Deborahjay (talk) 18:58, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Christianity (in this case Catholicism, the branch most associated with the notion in question) claims to hold universal truths for all mankind. If Catholics are correct, then they are correct also for the Jews.  You can certainly take the position that they are not correct.  I take that position too, at least for some things (if I didn't I would be Catholic, which I'm not).  But you can't say "well, Catholicism is OK for cultures that are traditionally Catholic, but keep it away from the things associated with the Jews".  That's just not coherent. --Trovatore (talk) 19:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * My point is that the "Seven Deadly Sins" is a concept foreign to Judaism and any Hebrew rendering of the individual terms is just that, not to be taken as a definitive, "canonical" translation. To rephrase User:Trovatore's contention I'd say: Catholic concepts are not necessarily "translatable" with an exact word-for-word correspondence in a foreign language (Hebrew) lexically embedded in cultures (Judaic, Israeli) to which Catholicism is itself foreign. -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:46, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Arabic

 * Superbia: كبرياء
 * Avaritia: طمع
 * Luxuria:		ترف
 * Ira: غضب
 * gula: نهم
 * Invidia: حسد
 * Acedia: كسل

Persian

 * Superbia:	 	غرور
 * Avaritia: 		طمع
 * Luxuria:		نعمت
 * Ira:			خشم
 * Gula:		شکم پرستی
 * Invidia:		حسادت
 * Acedia: 		کاهلی

Chinese

 * Superbia: 自豪
 * Avaritia: 貪心
 * Luxuria: 豪華
 * Ira: 憤怒
 * Gula: 暴食
 * Invidia: 羨慕
 * Acedia: 樹懶

Korean

 * Superbia: 자존심
 * Avaritia: 욕심
 * Luxuria: 사치
 * Ira: 분노
 * Gula: 대식
 * Invidia: 선망의 대상
 * Acedia: 나무 늘보

Russian

 * Superbia: гордость
 * Avaritia: жадность
 * Luxuria: роскошь
 * Ira: гнев
 * Gula: обжорство
 * Invidia: зависть
 * Acedia: ленивец

Thank you in advance! --Slashme (talk) 13:58, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Your Russian one is not correct. As it has been advised you'd better go to appropriate articles and look for yourself. For example in Russian even if you cannot read the article you'll find your answer.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:03, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

English

 * I note you use the Latin terms for the Seven deadly sins. The English equivalents thereof are, in the order you've chosen:


 * Superbia: Pride
 * Avaritia: '''Avarice
 * Luxuria: '''Lust
 * Ira: '''Wrath
 * Gula: '''Gluttony
 * Invidia: '''Envy
 * Acedia: '''Sloth
 * (I make it a badge of honour to commit at least 4 before breakfast.) --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  16:23, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sloth, Lust, Gluttony, then Pride, in that order, right? :) KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 17:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmm, gluttony before breakfast, eh? That doesn't quite work for me, I'm afraid.  Best I can do on an empty stomach is avarice and envy.  But I do have an overweening pride in my assorted lusts and appetites. :)  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, so maybe for me, pride comes after breakfast. Does sloth count twice if I add it before gluttony, while I watch her cook? So, sloth, lust, sloth, gluttony, then pride? Then go to work (avarice), envy my boss for having an easy job and his not having a clue what mine is supposed to be, then going to the pub afterwards to calm my wrath. Then sloth, lust, and pride, sloth and gluttony again, and maybe lust again. There - all seven in one single working day - multiple times. Pride! :) KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 12:25, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Someone should write a paper on how sloths express their lust. Or slugs.  I'm sure I've experienced sluglust now and again.  Not yet advanced to slothlust.  There's still time.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:24, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know from sloths, but slugs are known for their orgies, which we like to call a "slugfest". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * And speaking of slugfests, congratulations to Australia for getting to the World Cup final. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Now we have to beat our trans-Tasman co-hosts.  Rest of the world, take a break and enjoy the carnage.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:34, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Funny how England is terrible at every single game we invented. :) By the way, Jack, I would see a psychiatrist about your, ahem, preference for small, snotty, homeless snails. :) Having said that, they do make a tasty snack. Just add salt. KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 12:39, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Pity. One of my phantom alternative user names is Sluglust Slutglut. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  13:26, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Don't do this before a native speaker verifies every single translation. Seriously, it's a bad idea.  In the Chinese list of sins:


 * Superbia: 自豪
 * Avaritia: 貪心
 * Luxuria: 豪華
 * Ira: 憤怒
 * Gula: 暴食
 * Invidia: 羨慕
 * Acedia: 樹懶
 * The first one, 自豪, does mean "proud", but it doesn't have a negative connotation. The second is correct.  The third means "luxurious" or "extravagant", not "lust".  The fourth and fifth are correct.  The sixth means "admiration", with the same positive connotation as the English word.  The seventh is sloth, meaning the lazy animal that climbs on trees.
 * I suggest this alternative list, from the Chinese Wikipedia (in the same order as above): 傲慢, 贪婪, 色欲, 愤怒, 暴食, 嫉妒, 懒惰 --Bowlhover (talk) 18:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * "A friend told me that he's planning to get a tattoo with the seven deadly sins, in various languages." Advise him not to. 86.152.162.108 (talk) 20:35, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. No point in getting tattoos in foreign languages, because A) It will make it a bit difficult to get a job in some cultures, and B) They will be in languages he doesn't understand and possibly can't even identify. KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 21:40, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * There are actually services to certify accuracy of tattoos! Or at least there's one. --jpgordon:==( o ) 03:54, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Japanese:
 * 傲慢 	superbia pride
 * 憤怒 	ira 	wrath
 * 怠惰 	acedia 	sloth/acedia
 * 嫉妬 	invidia envy
 * 強欲 	avaritia greed/avarice
 * 色欲 	luxuria lust
 * 暴食 	gula 	gluttony


 * An easy way to do this would be to go to our Seven deadly sins article (linked to above), then scroll down and look on the far left. It has a huge number of languages to choose from, presumably all written by native speakers. 08:52, 26 March 2015 (UTC) KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 08:55, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks all! Really good advice. --Slashme (talk) 09:04, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Slashme: I strongly urge you read WP:CHINESECHARACTERTATTOO. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Latin
If you go for Latin, give all the words consistent capitalisation (some of the selections above are inconsistent), or every copyeditor you pass will want to get out a biro and write on you for the rest of your life. --Dweller (talk) 15:45, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Unless using Mediaeval Latin, in which uncials are perfectly acceptable. Rome only adopted Christianity in the 4th Century AD. KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 16:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * According to our article, uncials are "written entirely in capital letters", in which case they're extremely consistent. --Dweller (talk) 16:28, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You only have to look at the picture in the article to see that the lower case letters of today are derived from uncials, and those in turn are derived from capitals, therefore, this is the reason we essentially have two writing systems in English. One is ALL CAPS and the other is small letters  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 02:03, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Strictly speaking in the time of uncial there were no such things as "capital and small letters". Better to say uncial was unicase (like many scripts of the East today). So our article is misleading.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:08, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "wrath"
Lately I keep hearing people saying it to rhyme with the non-word "math". But until recently it always rhymed with "moth". In my experience, that is. What could explain this? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I have always rhymed it with "math". To me the word that rhymes with "moth" is "wroth", as in that which one waxes, though to be honest I've never been quite sure whether it should rhyme with "both" instead.  Maybe it's just more progressive Yank contamination of the purity of the Strine language? --Trovatore (talk) 22:57, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, just checked Wiktionary. "Wroth" doesn't rhyme with either "moth" or "both"; it rhymes with "cloth". --Trovatore (talk) 23:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * In the American Midwest, "wroth" is a homophone of the surname Roth, and rhymes with both cloth and moth. The word "wrath" comes from the same root as "wroth". (And this saved me the trouble of linking to a specific joke by Groucho on the subject.) In the American Midwest, "wrath" rhymes with bath, math and path. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:07, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You both puzzled me. Do you in America pronounce both with the "short O" (RP )? Or moth and cloth with "long O" (RP )? Bath, math and path? Could you IPA-ize your answer as I do not understand this "rhyme notation", it mostly confusing.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:28, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no uniform answer for what we do in America. See cot–caught merger.  Short answer is, it's complicated. --Trovatore (talk) 14:37, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * And wiktionary features "wrath" on two lists of English rhymes: -ɒθ (with "moth") marked "UK", and -æθ (with "math") marked "one pronunciation". ---Sluzzelin talk  23:07, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The OED allows both /rɒθ/ and /rɔːθ/ for British pronunciation, and has /ræθ/ as the US pronunciation, but the entry hasn't been updated since 1928. I've heard the pronunciation marked US used in England, and, of course, in Scotland it is usually /raθ/.  Here in northern England, it rhymes with moth and cloth (/rɔθ/), not with math[s], path and hath (/haθ/).   D b f i r s   08:53, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Creeping Americanisation means that in London, younger people tend to rhyme it with math rather than cloth. Another annoying example is sloth which traditionally in England rhymes with "both" rather than "cloth". Alansplodge (talk) 14:02, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I was given to understand that it rhymes with "both" when it refers to the vice, but with "cloth" when it refers to the mammal. Is that distinction not made in the UK? --Trovatore (talk) 14:36, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes it is made. In southern English at least, it's for the mammal;  for the sin. The former rhymes with moth, cloth and wrath; the latter with both. Bazza (talk) 17:33, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Citation needed please. Sloths were slothful and pronounced the same when I went to school in London. Alansplodge (talk) 01:07, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The OED has /sləʊθ/ for all senses, but the entry hasn't been updated since 1928. (That's essentially the same as Bazza's, though it would be /slo̞:θ/ in my native Cumbrian or Yorkshire dialect.)    D b f i r s   09:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Wrath and wroth have been related but separate words since Old English, wrath has always had the math vowel. See etymology on line.
 * Not "always". ( Apologies for interrupting Medeis' paragraphs. ) The OED says " Old English wrǽððu, -o , = wrǽþþu , < wráþ wroth adj. + -þu .  The original long vowel (ǣ) was shortened before the double consonant, and gave the two Middle English types wreþþe and wraþþe. From the latter comes the modern wrath, with later lengthening of the a, as in path, lath. The pronunciation /rɑːθ/ , regarded by Walker (1791) as ‘more analogical’, and formerly common in English use but now displaced by that with the rounded vowel /rɔːθ/ , and later by /rɒθ/ , is still given as the standard by American dictionaries."    D b f i r s   09:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * By always I meant since OE. μηδείς (talk) 19:03, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * , Americans in the blue areas of this map have lost the ability to distinguish between the vowels of cot and caught, which are the second and third vowels of the word хорошо. In the red areas they still distinguish the two vowels, in the blue areas they have merged with two results:


 * In New England they use only the third vowel of the Russian word for both cot and caught. In the remaining areas they only use the second vowel of the Russian word.  When I was a receptionist, we had a salesman named Don.  Some people would call asking if Dawn was available.  I said there was no Dawn working for the company.  Finally, someone asked if he had been fired, "Dawn" being a girl's name, "Don" being short for Donald.  He probably lost a few potential clients until I caught on. μηδείς (talk) 02:20, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The word sloth (for the vice) comes from the Middle English slow-th. In the US it is usually pronounced to rhyme with moth, nowadays, but one does still hear it rhymed occasionally with growth.  The animal was named for the vice by the Portuguese, and the English name is based on the translation of the Portuguese word.  See Etymology Online.


 * It is curious whether the British study calcs, and have dogs catchers and birds feeders. μηδείς (talk) 02:20, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure what a "calc" is, and no we don't have "dogs catchers and birds feeders". "Math" versus "maths" has been argued many times on the Refdesk and I think we have to agree to differ. Alansplodge (talk) 18:24, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Calculus, hence *calcs. You do have "drugs" offenses rather than drug offenses, which strikes us as odd. μηδείς (talk) 19:01, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether we usually abbreviate "calculus", but then I'm no maths expert. Alansplodge (talk) 21:10, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * A mathematic in the past was a mathematician or astrologer, or one who studied Pythagoras' proofs. I've never heard the singular used in modern English.  Calculus isn't abbreviated on this side of the pond; calc is an abbreviation for calcareous over here.  We have drugs offences (offences involving drugs, not offenses involving drug).    D b f i r s   21:37, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Interesting. They were not official names, but my high school had Calc I, Trig, and Calc II. μηδείς (talk) 22:00, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * In the American Midwest, anyway, "cot-caught" doesn't connect with "wrath-wroth". It would be more like "cat-caught", which are less likely to be confused with each other. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:20, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Or cat-cot. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  04:25, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I only brought up that co-cauught merger because of Ljuboslov's confusion at the top of the page, it's not strictly relevant, but see also the northern cities vowel shift. μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Is this a catalog? What kind of publication is Livres-Hebdo (French language help)
I'm trying to find information on a manga series for an AFD discussion. I wanted to see if this source has any bearing on notability but I'm not hopeful that it does.

Livres hebdo - Issues 547-550 - Page 100. Éditions professionelles du livre, 2004
 * See the end of this search page, See Snippet view #1 of page 100,
 * "TSUKIRINO Yumi Pikachu adventures. 1. - Grenoble : Glénat. 2004. - l92p.:ill.cncoul.;18xl2cm Une nouvelle aventure de Pikachu et ses amis, prêts à tout pour devenir les meilleurs éleveurs pokémon de la planète. Lecteurs débutants ( à partir de 6 ans). Br. 7,50€ ISBN 2-7234- 3687-X 782723H36878' 00100 VANOLI"

This shows another Snippet view of page 100.

This looks like a catalog listing, but is it that, or is it "book news"? I wonder if any people familiar with France understand Livres-Hebdo and what it's reporting on. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:42, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * According to the article on this publication in the French Wikipedia, it is a weekly magazine targeted to professionals in the book publishing and distribution world, including librarians and proprietors of bookstores. It includes feature articles about new books and presumably listings of new publications.  Marco polo (talk) 17:48, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I presume that this would be a list of new publications in France. I wonder if there's a way to check which books are covered in feature articles? WhisperToMe (talk) 18:05, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Science Fiction World
Hi! I wonder if anyone has an idea if and how it might be possible to get one's hands on the magazine Science Fiction World (科幻世界) in North America. Thanks!

Duomillia (talk) 20:33, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Somehow I doubt if the market for Chinese language sci-fi magazines in NA is enough for anyone to set up a distribution system. That would leave you the option of searching for issues on e-bay, etc. StuRat (talk) 21:19, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Amazon China μηδείς (talk) 02:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

LEARNING LUSOGA LANGUAGE
I AM FROM CANADA AND I AM PLANNING ON GOING TO JINJA,UGANDA   I AM LOOKING FOR A TRAINING MANUAL THAT WILL HELP ME LEARN THIS LANGUAGE. I AM ENGLISH SPEAKING SO EVEN A DICTIONARY WOULD HELP  LUSOGA-ENGLISH TERRY THOM .

THANK YOU — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.1.62 (talk) 23:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Here's a page with some audio files, and here's a list of resources and dictionaries. It is easier to find resources for Swahili, though according to Uganda it is not as popular in the south of the country. (By the way, it's best to turn off your caps lock when posting on the Internet; people read it as "shouting"). Lesgles (talk) 03:37, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Although I would certainly advise learning the local languages, I did spend some time in Jinja, and found that English is very widely and well spoken. Fgf10 (talk) 07:45, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Much depends on your goal. If you take all it seriously and you plan to live in the particular region for more, say, 3 months and most importantly to interact actively and routinely with the locals (not all ex-pats do this, many live in their "ex-pat districts" and speak only with their ex-pat compatriots) you may do a little effort and sign to a language course or at least to find in library or buy books on the language. But if you plan just a short trip, I wouldn't recommend study such a very local small language. Firstly, there are much less materials, very few of not at all courses available, very few natives around to practice with, all these make learning process more difficult. Second, you'd hardly learn the language properly with the problems mentioned above. Better to study lingua francas of the country. For Uganda it would be English (you know it), Swahili and (maybe) Luganda. Though Luganda is a little more "robust" language than Lusoga, it also has the quite same problems (but at a less degree). So I'd recommend to study a little Swahili to impress the locals. It the simplest of Bantu languages, it has a LOT of available resources. At least a basic phrasebook will do.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:06, 27 March 2015 (UTC)