Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 March 6

= March 6 =

Bad audio file
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:En-uk-father.ogg

I hate to ask this here, but I'm not sure if it will ever be corrected otherwise.

Can someone who speaks British English and lacks th-fronting (which, I daresay, is fewer people these days than it had ought to be) correct this audio file?

This audio file, whatever it is meant to represent phonetically, is poorly recorded and subject to stark misanalysis.

It sounds like the speaker is mixing /ð/ with /v/, leaning more towards the latter.

It doesn't match its purpose, whatever the case, and had ought to be replaced by a better audio file.

I, however, am from New England, and am not qualified to correct it. If I were to try, I would end up sounding like someone from the late 18th century (a sort of proto-RP, in a way), and I know for sure that that is not what is desired for the audio file. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 00:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


 * There is nothing actually wrong with the way he says "father" in British English. He says "th" not "v", but the audio quality is not great, which may be why you think you hear "v". 31.51.2.19 (talk) 02:42, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Mm. Which is why I ask for a better recording to replace it. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 14:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


 * You can go to Forvo, download the file from there and replace the one on Commons. Use the same licence (CC 3.0) and the same type of description as in this file. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 18:04, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * What is Forvo? Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 20:01, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 20:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * How long should the upload delay be from when it actually replaces the previous file? It usually doesn't take so long. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 20:33, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It's always been instantaneous for me. Either way, it's done. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 20:37, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You can confirm this? Because my browser is still having the other audio file play. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 04:07, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes. You should clear your browser's cache. If that doesn't help, restart your computer. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 16:54, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

How does the French phrase "Monsieur le Curé" translate to "the parish priest"?
What is the French-to-English translation for the phrase "Monsieur le Curé"? Google Translate states: "the parish priest". But, when I translate the individual words "Monsieur" and "Curé" from French to English, they do not translate as "parish" or "priest". Likewise, when I translate the individual words "parish" and "priest" from English to French, the do not translate as "Monsieur" or "Curé". (However, the "le" does translate as "the", and vice-versa.) In fact, the word ""Monsieur" translates as "Mister".   Can someone explain this translation?  If it is at all relevant, this question is prompted by the reference in the Wikipedia article for Lourdes apparitions under The 15th appearance (4 March) section (footnote 16).     Thanks.    Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 13:48, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The phrase does actually mean a priest overseeing a parish (compare the English word 'curator').  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  14:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


 * 'Curé' means 'parish priest'; it's equivalent to the English word 'curate', which in some Anglophone circles has undergone misleading semantic drift to mean 'assistant curate'. It's common in formal forms of French to use 'Monsieur le...' and 'Madame la...' to refer to office-holders. So 'Monsieur le Curé' literally means 'Mr Parish Priest', but it's just a formal way of saying 'the parish priest'. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has a redirect of the word Curé which redirects to curate which confirms that Curé just means "parish priest". The other English word that comes closest to the role and meaning is Pastor. It comes from the latin word "care (for)..." and has the same root as the English word "to cure" meaning to cure a disease.  Broadly, the word may be best directly translated as "carer" or "caretaker" and has a similar sense to the English word "Pastor" as in "One who takes care of a flock of sheep"  (c.f. pastor and pastoralism).  The idea is that a Curé has direct care of a group of believers, which is distinct from an Abbé or Abbot, which were priests who headed an Abbey, or monastery.  -- Jayron 32 15:55, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Our Pastor article says; "In the United States, the term pastor is used by Catholics for what in other English-speaking countries is called a parish priest." So it rather depends whether you're translating French into American English or some other variety. In the UK, the title "pastor" is generally only used by Lutherans and some evangelical churches as far as I know; it would certainly suggest a Protestant minister to me. Alansplodge (talk) 18:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Parish priest works in American English too. Marco polo (talk) 19:42, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Technically, the chief priest of an American parish is called monsignor, which is a formal title one can use (in lieu of simply father) in speech, and which should be used in writing. There might be three priests serving a large parish, but if someone asks, "Who's the monsignor?" there's only one answer.


 * Parish priest is fine and understood, but not specifically Catholic, and not a proper form of direct address. E.g., "I told cousin Mary that our Monsignor Jones is very strict, but she said her parish priest even allows Cat Stevens music."


 * To be more absolute, Monsignor would translate the whole Monsieur le Curé since there is no ambiguity as to what Monsignor means to English speaking Catholics in a church setting. μηδείς (talk) 01:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, that is incorrect. The chief priest of an American parish is most commonly called a Rector.  Monsignor isn't a job, it's an honorific title.  Many Rectors may also be Monsignors, but those are not connected ideas.  Monsignor is roughly equivalent to being "Knighted" for Catholic clergy.  But it has nothing to do with a role.  Rectors are parish priests who are the chief priest of a congregation, especially when there are several priests serving the same congregation.   One could also be a parish priest and not a Rector, those priests are properly titled Vicars.  -- Jayron 32 04:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * See here for some explanation of the historical differences between rectors, vicars, and others in the C of E. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * How odd, I have been a heretic all these years. Obviously the usage exists, since the article monsignor even says technically one cannot be the "monsignor of a parish".  As for rector, that's not the exact equivalent.  The article says one can be the rector of a parish, but also of other things like shrines and seminaries.  Here's the Catholic Encyclopedi on [The faithful are called parishioners, the priest parochus, curate, parish priest, pastor.  parish], one can look up "monsignor" as well, which it compares in use to the word "officer" in the military--a higher rank than private, but of unspecified position. As for the French translation, monsignor in English links to Monseigneur at fr.wikipedia. μηδείς (talk) 17:37, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Discussed this with my father, he explained that I mistook his description of the arrangement at my childhood parish, where the pastor was a monsignor, for a definition. μηδείς (talk) 17:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * This all reminds me of my first exposure to the word 'curé', when I was about 12. One day I had reason to be at my church, and on the way out I was idly browsing through the pamphlets in the rack in the vestibule, as one does.  I came across one that I soon discovered was about St John Vianney, but it was the title that stopped my then non-francophone eyes in their tracks: The Curé of Ars, which I thought said The Cure of Arse.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * As in 'Our Souls Be Protected'.... :)  KägeTorä - ( 影 虎 )  ( Chin Wag )  19:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * No, as in Father Ted, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:16, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:41, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Byron name
I have left the question in the page discussion.--Carnby (talk) 22:56, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * So that people don't have to switch between pages, the question is about the correct IPA for the name, and for the adjective "Byronic". I'm afraid I don't know IPA well enough to answer myself. Tevildo (talk) 00:00, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Phonemically in Standard American English, /'bajrən/ and /baj'ranək/. Phonetically, ['bɑɪɹn̩] and [bɑɪ'ɹɒ:nɨk].  The SAE phonemic transcription is broad, and assumes the speaker doesn't have the Boston-style caught-cot merger.  I suspect some Brits may use ɔ for the stressed vowel in the adjectival form, but they should speak for themselves. μηδείς (talk) 01:37, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know any "Brits" who lengthen and slightly close the o vowel, but there could be the odd one. The OED says /baɪˈrɒnɪk/.    D b f i r s   12:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Or in simple English, homophone to BUY-run. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * BUY-run doesn't work for Received Pronunciation, which contrasts and . Also,  ends the first syllable, rather than starting the second one. See Longman Pronunciation Dictionary and Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 09:00, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Skip the IPA gibberish and tell me in simple English, as I did, how you would pronounce it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:07, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * IPA is not gibberish. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 04:06, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe not to you, but you are not everyone. Where in the rules for using Wikipedia does it state that a degree in linguistics is a requirement? And more importantly, if you can't actually provide an answer to my question, go hassle someone else. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:20, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Dictionary.com features a pronunciation of Byron here in either IPA or respelling. You can also find entries on Byron and Byronic at howjsay.com. While the IPA may be gibberish to some, the OP specifically asked how to transcribe the name for a Wikipedia page, which means it should conform to the system outlined at Help:IPA for English. In that case, I'd say it would be, as dictionary.com syllabifies the r being part of the second syllable. Though others may have sources that lead to a pronunciation of , with the r syllabified in the first syllable.— Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 05:52, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem is, those sounds that he mentions cannot be transcribed in any other manner that would make sense to you, because at least one of those sounds is not present in your dialect. Hence his use of IPA, to make sure that anyone that understood IPA would know what he was talking about. See, in my dialect, those two sounds that he mentioned are merged to /ɐ/ (though that probably also doesn't make sense to you either), but since he used IPA, I could understand what he was talking about.
 * This is the very reason why IPA exists: to provide a common method of transcription that works for all of the world's languages, and allows mutual understanding between everyone that knows it. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 13:55, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Wait, so RP contrasts and ? That's news to me. Are there any minimal pairs? — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]  16:27, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * an orthodoxy - unorthodoxy; a large and tidy room - a large untidy room. See . AFAIK, this contrast is also present in Australian and New Zealand English. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 16:51, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * ...Hm? Are there any dialects in which "an orthodoxy" would sound like "unorthodoxy"? Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 17:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, the accents with - merger. These include most of Wales. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 17:21, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I see. Even unstressed, those two words sound very unalike to my ears. But whatever. Out of curiosity, what is the resulting phoneme for Wales? Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 17:35, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I think we'd also put a lot of North American dialects in the same pool as RP. Could the difference have to do with stress? — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:40, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It's usually realized as, be it central, fronted central, or retracted central. In northern areas it may be lower, i.e. . See the vowel charts on Welsh_English. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 20:05, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Not according to Wells - see the link above. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 20:05, 8 March 2015 (UTC)