Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 May 21

= May 21 =

Gallipot
John Aubrey uses gallipot to mean (I think) a kind of mottled blue - for example, "I do well remember that the common English cat was white with some bluish piedness, that is a gallipot blue..." and also "there persons are generally plump and feggy; gallipot eyes, and some black; but they are generally handsome enough" (of North Wiltshiremen). Elspeth Huxley used Gallipot Eyes, from the latter quotation, for the title of a diary about her life in Wilts. I've not seen this usage anywhere else, and the OED does not have it. I would be interested to know if any other writers use it in this way. DuncanHill (talk) 00:44, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I think it's possible it might just be a metaphor based on a common type of glazing (in some places and times). Gallipot says it "is a small glazed earthenware jar..." Consider this google image search for /glazed earthenware/ - most examples are dappled/ pied/ reticulated/mottled/brindled, and many are contain prominent blue. Also consider crazing as a possible motif for metaphorical fodder. The idea is that it is not the pot that is being referenced, but the common irregularity and patterning of various glazing techniques. I also suspect the several related pattern words I linked above are more the core of the metaphor, rather than the color blue per se. Surely none of this is conclusive, but perhaps suggestive. SemanticMantis (talk) 02:56, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Frustratingly, most of the images for gallipot are not glazed earthenware, nor is the image in our article :-/ SemanticMantis (talk) 02:59, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Note that the only part of a cat that can actually be blue is the eyes. In cat fanciers' jargon, "blue" fur is gray, although some sources say it can be a slightly bluish gray.  --174.88.135.200 (talk) 03:59, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Aubrey does say the breed is almost lost, and that was in the 17th Century. DuncanHill (talk) 11:55, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

What's the provenance of the given name Ahsan?
I am curious, is Ahsan is a specifically ethnically typical name? I know of a person with that name and with a Muslim last name (of the abdul- form) whom I highly doubt is ethnically Arab, but we're are not on intimate terms, and I am just curious what Ahsan might mean. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 01:06, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Arabic, "the best", "the most beautiful". See here. DuncanHill (talk) 01:17, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * And of course, most Muslims are not ethnically Arab. DuncanHill (talk) 01:18, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, excellent, I was quite aware of the fact that most Muslims are not Arabic, which is why I did not jump to the conclusion that although Ahsan does have an Arabic syllabic form, it need not be nor need he be Arabic. Given I don't read the alphabet, I was not going to guess at something I assumed was probably Urdu, Bengali or Farsi without advice.  Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 04:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * It could also be Indonesian, Malay or Turkish for that matter. It is related to (same root as) Ihsan and Ihsan (name).--William Thweatt TalkContribs 04:39, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Japanese question: info on a book written about the Japanese school of Manaus, Brazil?
Hi! I found out about this book:
 * Miura, Mitsutoshi (三浦 光俊). アマゾン川にいだかれて : マナオス日本人学校の三年間. 三浦光俊著 近代文芸社, 1994.11. ISBN 4773327847. See profile at CiNii. See profile at National Diet Library. See entry at Amazon.co.jp.

Does anyone know more about the background of Mitsutoshi Miura? What kinds of connections did he have with the school? Who is the publisher? Was this sold in regular Japanese bookstores? Was the Japanese School of Manaus involved in the creation of this book? How would the title and name of the publisher be translated?

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 07:39, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I have no clue about most of your questions, but the title means "Hugged by the Amazon River: 3 years of/at the Manaus Japanese school", and the publisher is Kindai Bungeisha (these guys, I guess, though they use 藝 in their name instead of the simplified 芸). -- BenRG (talk) 02:58, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I wonder if searching the kanji of the author and the title of the book may net more info about the author. I will pass the information on to the Portuguese Wikipedia. See: Escola Japonesa de Manaus and pt:Escola Japonesa de Manaus WhisperToMe (talk) 08:52, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

What's the name of the "promo" (like an abstract or a brief preface) usually printed on the back of books?
HOOTmag (talk) 10:21, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Blurb. 196.213.35.146 (talk) 10:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much. HOOTmag (talk) 10:30, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Fell as past participle of fall (The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down)?
In the "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" I can hear the line "By May the 10th Richmond had fell it's a time I remember oh so well". The lyrics sites I've checked agree. But this would be the only occurrence of "fell" as a past participle of "fall" I've ever come across. Do we, me and those sites, hear this right? Couldn't this actually be "By May the 10th Richmond xxxx fell", with a past tense and something we all mishear at xxxx? Contact Basemetal   here  13:28, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * See Southern American English, which notes that all southern dialects share some difference from Standard English dialects in several ways they form past tenses, both simple past and past participles. While the specific example you give is not given in Wikipedia's article, it does note several other peculiar past tenses there, and the construction "had fell" sounds to me as distinctly "southern"; notably while The Band was mostly Canadian, the singer of that song, Levon Helm was from Arkansas.  -- Jayron 32 13:43, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Poetic license. "Had fallen" doesn't really rhyme with "well". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:55, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * My alternate lyrics: "By May the 10th Richmond had fallen; I wish all the Yanks I could just wall in". StuRat (talk) 15:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Compare Amazing Grace, the last stanza (added later IIRC):
 * When we've been there ten thousand years
 * Bright shining as the Sun
 * We've no less days to sing God's praise
 * Than when we first begun
 * I love that stanza, among other things, for bringing the notion of a Dedekind-infinite set into everyday culture (and no, Medeis, it doesn't mean it's "bigger than itself", just that you can take something away without making it smaller, quite a different notion). But the tenses and inflections are a little iffy. --Trovatore (talk) 15:10, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I do appreciate the mention, Trovatore, but I'm not particularly critical of theological claims made in religious songs from a scientific viewpoint. μηδείς (talk) 17:42, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Notably, that stanza was added by African Americans from the American South... -- Jayron 32 15:20, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Same but backwards: standard English past participle is used here as a past tense. Songwriters: for the sake of a rhyme use any past participle as a past tense, or vice versa, and don't worry about it. There will be some dialect of English for which this will be right. Contact  Basemetal   here  15:38, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, Newton's original version has a quite different and more grammatical final verse - see Olney Hymns, in three books (p. 43). Alansplodge (talk) 22:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Dictionary: Southern Appalachian English lists "have fell" and "had fell" with a note "OED dates this usage from the 17th century". Also Kanye West uses "had fell" in Cold (Kanye West song) so it is not only southern dialect. Rmhermen (talk) 17:08, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This discusses some aspects of the Southern American accent. Bus stop (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, regarding the Kanye West song, AAVE is a close cousin of Southern US dialects, the Wikipedia article notes the commonalities. -- Jayron 32 17:23, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Usages like this don't strike me as odd unless maybe on network nightly news and from Alex Trebek. In NYC you hear a lot of southernisms among blacks.  Whites in Most of Manhattan tend not to be native, but upwardly mobile, and more careful of their speech.  "Had went" is extremely common in the Delaware Valley.  Had Basemetal not brought it up I doubt I'd ever've noticed it. μηδείς (talk) 17:50, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Older sibling vs younger sibling in the case of Japanese twins?
I would assume that, in Japan, when twins are born, the one who comes out first is officially the older sibling (ani/ane). This seems obvious but things that seem obvious do not always turn out to be true so I'd like to check this with someone that knows this for a fact. Thanks. Contact Basemetal   here  13:37, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * December 13 seems to be 双子の日 (Day of the Twins), which appears to have something to do with an edict issued in 1874 regarding the ordering of twins. My Japanese is rudimentary at best, so somebody needs to confirm this but I'm pretty sure this page says that prior to this act, the twin who was born last was considered to have been the first "implanted" or "conceived" and therefore the oldest (i.e. first in, last out). The edict, however, reversed that tradition and declared that the first-born twin shall be the older sibling. Like I say, though, somebody more skilled in Japanese needs to confirm that as well as the reliability of the "sources".--William Thweatt TalkContribs 07:43, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That page does say that, but Japanese Wikipedia says there was no universal rule, with the first born or the healthier larger-boned(?) twin sometimes being considered the ani/ane. -- BenRG (talk) 18:27, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Or whose build was bigger? Or is that an idiom? I wonder if this has any implication for twins of opposite gender. Contact Basemetal   here  19:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Eijiro has "large(r) body frame". It sounded so odd to me to talk about the physique of a newborn that I substituted "healthier", but I shouldn't have. -- BenRG (talk) 18:43, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Coincidentally, the game "Tokaido", which is about traveling on the famous road in historical times, has first-in-last-out built in its mechanism.&mdash; Sebastian 20:20, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The first born is actually considered the elder sibling. KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 08:28, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Explanation
I took this test and it asked you to convert this sentence: "It is fun to play on the beach in the summer" to an exclamatory format

_____ ______ it is play on the beach in the summer!

My teacher insists that you can only fill in WHAT FUN, but I'm sure you can also fill in HOW FUN. Why?

Also, : This road is not good. Let's pick __________ one.

It's a multiple answer choice with "another" and "the other" being 2 of the choices. She insists that another is the best answer. Is it? and why?

(with emphasis on the why)

Thanks :)--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Someone with a Question (talk • contribs) 16:00, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Your teacher may be some kind of unbending linguistic prescriptivist, which is never good for someone teaching language (though I may be reading too much into your short question). Language bends and twists and changes and has colloquialisms and slang and regional variations and so on. A teacher can attempt to teach, qualifiedly, what is considered most proper by the mainstream majority in a certain location, with the premises that slang is verboten and colloquialisms are to be avoided. etc. But they must provide some type of qualification because the notion that X is wrong and Y is right in English, as a monolith, is mostly nonsense. As to the first question, I am first assuming that the word "to" is intended to appear before play, and you missed it when typing this out. I believe what your teacher is objecting to with "how fun", is the use of "fun" as an adjective (you might see this World Wide Worlds post for more. It does sound colloquial to me; that it would be viewed as "more correct" in formal writing to use "what fun", but it is not "wrong" where the other is "right" for the reasons I've given. The problem with the second sentence is that the use of "the other" requires the reader to understand there are only two roads – information not contained within the confines of the sentence. "Another" works because it ropes in any other road without defining information on the number of roads available, as if the reader already knows the number. If that sentence appeared as part of dialogue, where the reader was already provided context in prior writing that there was only two roads, it would be perfectly cromulent.--96.246.181.46 (talk) 16:22, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, "another one" is a poor choice of words if there happens to be only two roads, which is often the case, so "the other" shouldn't be ruled out as an answer. --Modocc (talk) 18:03, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * On the second question, the key thing is the word "pick". The meaning is that, having decided not to use this road, you will then have to pick another road.  Therefore there must be at least two other roads.  But "the other road" only makes sense if there is only one other road.  Therefore "the other" is wrong, or at least, not the best normal usage. --174.88.135.200 (talk) 19:00, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * You're correct unless the speakers happen to not be on the roads in question and are deciding between them. For instance, they could be at the entrance to a toll road and deciding whether or not to turn back and go another way. Or they could not have even left yet and are studying two alternate routes. Given these possibilities, the test is poorly constructed.  --Modocc (talk) 19:23, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. If "this road" isn't one that they have already "picked", then "the other" is possible after all. --174.88.135.200 (talk) 21:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Both "How fun" and "What fun it is to play on the beach in summer are from the 1800's Bronte sisters area. No one has said either phrase since WWI.  IP 96 is correct that it should be "another one."  "The other assumes the voyagers know there are two, and only two."  Modocc is assuming a fact not in evidence. μηδείς (talk) 22:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "Another one" is possible too, but contrary to the teacher's misleading presumptive prescription (that there are more than two roads to pick from) I'm not being presumptive. Neither answer is best, for both are possible. -Modocc (talk) 22:35, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The reason that neither answer is "best" is that one of them may be better and the other worse. "Best" would apply only where there are three or more options.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  01:20, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If by options you mean roads then yes the additional information determines which answer is actually best. Without it we don't know which sentence should be used so the test is ill-conceived. In addition, with respect to the writer-reader relationship, it's not required that the audience has prior knowledge to what the speakers happen to know. In fact, writers sometimes use such dialog to inform the reader. For example: "This road is not good. Let's pick the other one!" Sally exclaimed as she pushed the laptop away. "Let me see." Dorothy responded, emptying her glass into the sink before peering over her roommate's shoulder to look at the mountainous terrain sprawled across the screen. To Dorothy, both routes to the lake had seemed plausible, but now she had to actually help with the decision since they would be leaving soon. Modocc (talk) 01:48, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That's well and good, but the conversational context lets us know how many roads are being discussed. The above test question is beyond terrible because it lacks context.  If it gives both options "the other road" and "another road" as possible answers, it's a shitty question, plain and simple.  They're both perfectly valid, perfectly grammatical constructions in proper English, and without context, there's no objective way to say one is better than the other.  -- Jayron 32 03:38, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * All valid points and points which I also either assumed or also made, contrary to what Medeis said. I figured that the teacher assumed the speaker was referring to the road the speaker was driving on so they simply had to pick "another" road which is why I elaborated on my counterexample in case it wasn't clear the first time I mentioned it above. I also rebutted Medeis's claim that I assumed only two roads, which I didn't and I've said that the test is ill-conceived and above I wrote "Given these possibilities, the test is poorly constructed." With regards to "the conversational context lets us know how many roads are being discussed" that is precisely what I meant when I said "writers sometimes use such dialog to inform the reader" which is why I knew that my counterexample would have the effect of conveying the required information.  -Modocc (talk) 04:00, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If I asserted that you made an assumption, Modocc, but you hadn't you would simply deny what I said, not rebut it. Given that "the other" could only be correct if you knew there were only two roads, and that was not mentioned, then you couldn't assume it was known.  But the proper thing to do at that point is to ask the teacher to clarify the question as you take the test, not now, when it's too late. μηδείς (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Let's suppose that I didn't rebut your assertion that "Modocc is assuming a fact not in evidence." to your satisfaction, but that I simply denied it. But you presented no evidence for your assertion. I had written "Unfortunately, "another one" is a poor choice of words IF there happens to be only two roads, which is often the case, so "the other" shouldn't be ruled out as an answer." [emphasis added] Clearly, I implied the teacher's answer would suffice if she wasn't being presumptive. In addition, we are not even discussing my exam(s) of course. -Modocc (talk) 17:33, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * My underlying point was that a rebuttal is an argument. But if I said "Modocc's favorite flavour icecream is chocolate" and you responded, "No, it's vanilla" that wouldn't be a rebuttal.  You don't need to argue with someone over your preferences, you just state them and deny the truth of mistaken claims.  My advice is that you be a little more aggressive with your English teacher, and be aware that the text is using language "What fun it is to play on the beach!" that is so outdated I doubt my grandparents ever said such a thing.  "Playing at the beach is awesome" or something like that doesn't sound like you've learnt English by reading Melville and Swift. μηδείς (talk) 21:23, 22 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, that sounds like something straight out of Fun with Dick and Jane (the boring books, not the unrelated movies), the type of formal speech that Doctor Seuss rebelled against, leading him to offer an entertaining alternative. StuRat (talk) 16:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You are mistaken that I am the OP (I'm a greying old guy and not a kid anymore) and I tried my best to explain that you strawmanned my position regarding my assumptions. I'll add that the OP should show this thread to his/her teacher for they will usually correct errant test scores. -Modocc (talk) 21:58, 22 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I can agree with the last, teachers should always be asked to clarify themselves. I guess I can also agree with the greying part. :) μηδείς (talk) 03:47, 23 May 2015 (UTC)