Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 May 30

= May 30 =

The Rain In Spain
Does it actually fall mainly on the plain, or is this just an elocution lesson for people who have trouble pronouncing 'ai'? A bit like 'How now, brown cow', which has no verb and one would not expect an answer from a cow, whatever colour it was. 82.35.216.24 (talk) 10:39, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The song doesn't say it falls on the plain but that it stays ("mainly") in the plain. Now seriously. Contact Basemetal   here  11:30, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Since what is meant by plain us undefined, the answer is uncertain. Most of Spain except the coasts is a high plateau, rain clouds tend to rain out as they are forced to ascend, hence much of Spain is dry.  The Northwest coast (especially Spanish Galicia) is rather lush.  Much of the potential rain from the Atlantic falls there and in Portugal rather than inland.  See climate of Spain. μηδείς (talk) 19:28, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I think the answer is clear &mdash; it's the second thing you said. Or more precisely, it's what the librettist thought would sound like an elocution lesson.  The elocution teachers couldn't much care whether the statement reflected reality, and the librettist wasn't much more interested in whether real elocution teachers use such a phrase.


 * Compare Moses supposes his toeses are roses/but Moses supposes erroneously/for Moses, he knowses his toeses aren't roses/as Moses supposes his toeses to be. --Trovatore (talk) 21:38, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Prof. Enry Iggins was packing as many "ays" in there as he could. Eliza would say it, "The rine in Spine sties minely in the pline." Until she "got it", by George. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:00, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The other one they used was "In Hartford, Hereford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen". Now, "hardly ever" says they have happened, if only rarely.  I'm no meaty horologist, but I'd be surprised if hurricanes have ever happened in those parts.  Conclusion: it wasn't meant to reflect the truth.  Neither was the Spanish one.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:34, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * It sounded like Hertford, not Hartford, to me. DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Hartford. Start at about 1:15 in. Or this, from :00. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:23, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Hertford is pronounced like "Hartford", and presumably the line is referring to the places in England...also Hartford frequently gets hurricanes, doesn't it? So that part wouldn't make sense, not that it really needs to make sense, but anyway it's clearly referring to Hertford. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:43, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * See also pun. DuncanHill (talk) 00:47, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Aha, spelled Hertford but pronounced Hartford. That British peculiarity, in words like clerk, derby, Kerr, etc. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Hartford, Connecticut was actually named after Hertford, Hertfordshire, but I suppose that they had forgotten how to spell it while they were away. The spelling of the place was Herutford in the 8th century, so I think we have continuity on our side. Alansplodge (talk) 18:03, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * And the irony is that they pronounce "hurricane" like "hurric'n". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:41, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * But they don't pronounce 'mobile' and 'missile' as if they were spelt 'moble' and 'missle'. And they don't drop the h in herb. So, all is forgiven.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  06:21, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * As it turns out, "erb" was correct from French, and later someone started enunciating the "h", from the Latin. However, we Yanks say "herbicide", not "erbicide". You got us on "mobile" (or "Mobil Oil") and "missle", though I doubt that the French pronunciation ended with a homophone of "isle" / "aisle". But we say the formal name of a car as "aw-toe-moe-beel". Do you say "aw-toe-moe-byle"? Then there's "Moe-BEEL", Alabama, but it apparently is an unrelated word. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:53, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * In my speech, the adjective meaning "able to be moved from place to place" is /'moʊbəl/, but the toy is a /'moʊ,bi:l/. --Trovatore (talk) 00:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That would depend on whether you use "hurricane" in the strict sense where it is limited to a sufficiently powerful tropical cyclone in certain parts of the world, or whether you mean the word to include any windstorm of hurricane strength. Specifically, see Great Storm of 1987. --174.88.135.200 (talk) 23:10, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * "Tropical cyclone" and "typhoon" don't start with the letter "h". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:14, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * A typhoon in Troon would not affect the Toon. DuncanHill (talk) 13:13, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * What's this about the British pronouncing "Kerr" like "car"?  Bill Kerr came over from Perth and went back there after working with Tony Hancock at the BBC.   He was always a "cur" to us.   Hancock went on tour to Australia and killed himself in Melbourne, like Jimmy Clitheroe did.   When I was over there I was ticked off for pronouncing "Melbourne" to rhyme with "born" rather than "burn".   I was also admonished for pronouncing "Albany" to rhyme with the American (shopping) "mall" rather than the British "mallet".   Do Australians shop in the "mall" rhyming with "maul" like the Americans or do they say it in the British way to rhyme with "pal"?
 * Aussies wouldn't know that Costessey, a suburb of Norwich (rhymes with the first syllable of "coral" followed by "itch") is pronounced "Cossy".  One stop down the railway line, Wymondham is pronounced the same as that town in the far north of Western Australia.   Cutteslowe, a suburb of Oxford, is pronounced "Cutslow", but when I was living in the equivalent Perth suburb it was pronounced as written.   I was amused to learn that Cottesloe is now the Beverley Hills of Western Australia.   The smart places used to be City Beach and Floreat Park.   I also lived in Northbridge, which had a bad reputation even in 1911.   How do Australians handle the pronunciation of names like Beauchamp, Cholmondeley, Mainwaring and St John Stevas? 87.81.147.76 (talk) 13:42, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * In English, the word "south" at the beginning of a place name sometimes rhymes with the first syllable in "mother", thus Southall, a west London suburb, Southwark, a south London suburb across the Thames from the City (the "w" is not sounded), and Southwell, a Nottinghamshire town which you hear of in betting shops because it has a racecourse (again the "w" is not sounded).  Does Australian pronunciation follow the same pattern?   In Perth, between Mosman Park and Fremantle, there used to be a Shire of Peppermint Grove, which had its own council but consisted of about half a dozen streets.   I believe it's been reorganised, but before it was would it hold the record for the smallest local government unit ever? 87.81.147.76 (talk) 13:59, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * What about Loughborough? KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 14:04, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Well there you're getting to it.  Slough, Brough Park, Lough Neagh, Loughborough (including the last syllable), they're all pronounced differently.   It was George Bernard Shaw who decided that "ghoti" is actually pronounced "fish" - "gh" as in "tough", "o" as in "women", and "ti" as in "nation". 87.81.147.76 (talk) 14:16, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You'd still be wrong if you pronounced Melbourne to rhyme with 'burn'. It's Mel-bən.  And Brisbane is Briz-bən (not -bane).  We shop in a "mall" (rhymes with Paul, not with pal), but yes, Albany is al-, not awl-.  When I was at school, we were taught the proper prons of most well-known Australian places, so we knew Launceston was Lon-, not Lawn-; and Toowoomba had a short -oom- (like a Yorkshireman saying "plum"), not long (like "doom"); and Canowindra was "kə-NOWN-dra" (rhymes with Caloundra), not "ka-nə-WIN-dra"; and Wangaratta was wang-, not wong-, and so on.  But listen to TV weather reports and you end up screaming at the presenters because they obviously have never even heard of half the places they tell us about, let alone have a clue how to pronounce them. So, with such a standard among the local "experts", we should go a little easier on our international visitors, many of whom are from overseas. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:26, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, I don't know who you're getting him confused with, but Jimmy Clitheroe suicided in Blackpool, England, and I can find no evidence he ever visited Australia at all. Also, Tony Hancock suicided in Sydney, not Melbourne.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:31, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Suicided? There's a word that should kill itself. DuncanHill (talk) 22:13, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, Bill Kerr resided in Perth when he returned to Australia, but he had had no previous association with that city. He was born in South Africa, and on migration to Australia his family lived in Wagga Wagga, NSW, a very long way from Perth.  In the UK he was billed as "The Boy from Wagga Wagga".  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:42, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * See "List of names in English with counterintuitive pronunciations".—Wavelength (talk) 14:53, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Wasn't Deborah Kerr pronounced "car"? In the UK, Bill Kerr was always pronounced "cur", and fissile missile rhymes.  Widneymanor (talk) 20:55, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, Deborah Car and Bill Cur. What a team they'd have made!  But they've both karked it (or is that kirked it, or kerrked it, or curked it ...?).  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:42, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I once heard a BBC weather presenter gleefully report: "Strong winds off the Atlantic are likely to push the storms in the western Mediterranean all the way through to the Caucasus so - and I've been waiting to say this all my career - the rains in Spain are heading for Ukraine!" Grutness...wha?  05:29, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Pronuciation of Dupleix
What is the proper pronunciation of the French surname Dupleix? -- 79.237.64.216 (talk) 19:34, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * As far as I know the final 'x' is pronounced in both French and English and the 'ei' is pronounced as a short 'e' in English and as an open 'e' in French. Contact Basemetal   here  21:24, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * But how is the X pronounced? --174.88.135.200 (talk) 03:35, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * According to this, it's pronounced like an "x". If so, "Dupleix" would be a near-homophone of "duplex". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:40, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The 'x' is pronounced like an 'x', i.e. as 'ks'. In French 'Dupleix' and 'duplex' are perfect homophones. In English they only differ in the place of the accent: first syllable for 'duplex', last syllable for 'Dupleix'. Contact Basemetal   here  04:57, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * "Dupleix" is originally an other spelling for "Duplessis" ( Duplessis (disambiguation) ). It must have been pronounced then ( approximately ) "Du-place", or "Duh-play-iss". --Askedonty (talk) 07:32, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought the standard French pronunciation of that name was based on an erroneous literal interpretation of the 'x'. There are other examples. Many French speakers pronounce the 'x' in Auxerre or Bruxelles as 'ks' where it stands in fact for 'ss'. Similarly the 'tz' in Metz should be pronounced as 's' but many French speakers pronounce it as 'ts' (affricate). Similarly in English the pronunciation of 'Mexico' and 'Texas'. There ought to be a name for this sort of thing. My all time favorite is the Italian word 'ovest' (meaning 'west'). " Ye Olde Sex Shoppe " is something similar, if not identical. Contact Basemetal   here  14:12, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
 * WHAAOI. --ColinFine (talk) 11:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Well I'm so familiar with French that it took me some time to understand in what way that could be erroneous. Between two teachers, one may be what I'd call a prescriber but the other will tell you if it's erroneous you get good semantic archeology behind, there you go. Unfortunately I'm much less literate that I'd wanted here. --Askedonty (talk) 15:47, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It seems to be below Sound change; the nearest seem to be Metathesis (linguistics), perhaps Epenthesis: Bridging consonant clusters. --Askedonty (talk) 19:20, 4 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The remarks above assume the Standard French pronunciation, but if this is a Languedoc language name, or from the Catalan language the x will be pronounced natively as sh in English. μηδείς (talk) 19:03, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Marquee project
In our article Gambit (2012 film), it says "Sutherland knew of a fledgling production company, Crime Scene Pictures, with equity financing from Southeast Asia, who were looking for a marquee project for their new company and felt that Gambit would fit the bill". What is a "marquee project"? DuncanHill (talk) 20:36, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * See definition 2 here . The adjectival one.  "very popular and well known, having or associated with the name recognition and attraction of one whose name appears on a marquee."  A marquee is the giant sign that appears over the doors of theaters, where you put the names of the best known stars in a show to attract patrons.  In the middle 20th century, the word got expanded to mean "well-known" or "well recognized".  A "marquee project" is one that a company is hoping will be a huge hit that will attract the company itself customers and name recognition, in the same way that a star's name on a theater marquee would attract customers.  -- Jayron 32 21:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I was previously only aware of the tent. DuncanHill (talk) 21:11, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Synonyms might be "signature project" or "flagship project" (if it's the main one). StuRat (talk) 23:00, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I wonder how on earth we managed to stumble through our pathetic lives before they finally took pity on us and gave us adjectives like "marquee" and "boutique". --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  06:14, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Isn't a "marquee display" on an electronic devices (e.g. old-style electronic typewriter) the term for where a single line of text runs laterally on a narrow rectangular screen, as with a teletype? -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:44, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * A similar use in sport - which I've particularly noticed in Australian soccer, so Jack will no doubt have heard it - is a "marquee player", i.e., a star player likely to draw supporters. Grutness...wha?  05:25, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah well, Grutness, that supposes I take any interest in soccer. Such a supposition would be contrary to the facts.  I do take a sort of malicious interest in the utterly absurd things that come out of the mouths of sports commentators generally, but "marquee player" has not yet come across my radar.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  06:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC)