Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 November 9

= November 9 =

"Ne Me Quitte Pas" (rounded vowels in French songs)
I have been listening to Nina Simone ("Feelin' Good") a lot recently, and listened to her version of "Ne Me Quitte Pas" at youtube. I noticed she does not round front her vowels in the words such as tu and coeur. I figured this was an Americanism, and listened then to the versions by Edith Piaf and Jacques Brel, but was surprised these vowels did not sound rounded in the native French speakers' versions either. Is it me, or do Piaf and Brel not front their front-rounded phonemes when singing? All three versions of the song can be found by following the link above, so I won't list them separately. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 03:12, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Your link doesn't lead to any version by Edith Piaf. Strangely, I made another search on YouTube to listen to her, and found SEVEN different videos whith a title "Edith Piaf - Ne Me Quitte Pas", where it is NOT Edith Piaf singing, where the YouTube video title is just wrong. Here is the "original version by Jacques Brel". I don't think Edith Piaf ever sang this Jacques Brel song. See also: Ne me quitte pas. Akseli9 (talk) 08:43, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * That's odd, the third video listed when I follow the link is this one, attributed to Piaf. Perhaps it is indeed not her, since it seems to be the same song one hears in Almodovar's La ley del deseo, which is attributed on IMDb to Maysa Matarazzo.  (But I could swear it was Piaf who sang this when we listened to it in high school French.)  In any case, are Brel's umlauted vowels actually unfronted or not?  To me his tu sounded like tous, but I may be mistaken. μηδείς (talk) 14:33, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Do understand that professional singers sometimes change sounds to make them more singable. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:25, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * μηδείς, I can confirm that your ears didn't fool you as the singer falsely named Piaf sounds indeed clearly Spanish to my French ears, and as you correctly found out, she doesn't umlaut her vowels. Brel too has a slight Belgian accent (he's a French singer but from Belgium not France), although Belgian accent doesn't open the fronted vowels as much as Spanish accent does (and Brel masters a perfect old-school diction). StevenJ81 has a very valid point and the main reason why Brel doesn't sound entirely French to your ears. Brel's voice was exceptionally powerful and possessed. His microphone setting was so low, he was able once, to sing an entire big show with an audience of thousands, despite an electric power failure occured at the beginning of the show. Akseli9 (talk) 17:20, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * μηδείς, But I could swear it was Piaf who sang this when we listened to it in high school French. Are you sure it was not Mireille Mathieu? Akseli9 (talk) 17:35, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * (The following response was posted here on behalf of user.87.81.230.195, as this desk is currently protected ---Sluzzelin talk  17:01, 9 November 2015 (UTC))
 * It may be relevant that neither of the two cited artists were entirely French. Piaf's mother was Italian, which may have influenced Piaf's accent, while Brel was Belgian. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 14:38, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Relevant yes, but only 10% relevant. 1) the female singer is not Piaf, she's clearly Spanish and most probably the singer who beautifully sings in one Almodovar's film. 2) Edith Piaf's accent doesn't sound Italian. It clearly sounds Parisian, the poor neighborhoods type from the 30s. 3) Brel's voice does contain something of a Belgian accent, but it is largely overwhelmed by his powerness and by his excellent diction. Akseli9 (talk) 17:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the great answers above. By my memory, we listend to Piaf sing various songs in first-year French which i took in the early 80's.  What was pointed out to us was the trilled /r/s and the syllabic final -e /ə/ used in song that were not normally heard in modern Parisian spoken French.  I know we definitely heard Piaf sing something, since it was in that class that I first heard of her, but it may very well have been Mireille Mathieu who was singing Ne me quitte pas.  I know we also listened to Je ne regrette rien, L'amour est bleu and the Marsaillaise in the same class.  In any case, I am glad to know that it is not due to my failing hearing that I didn't hear the fronting in the Spanish pseudo-Piaf's vowels. μηδείς (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I would point out that the syllabic final -e /ə/ is a common (enough) feature of sung (rather than spoken) French, in order to keep the meter of the lyrics and the meter of music in sync. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:36, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks,  I did understand that point about the schwas (it was the subject of the lesson for which the music was played to us on a 1950's phonograph), but it's not bad to point it out.  I have added my signature above, since you posted in the middle of my comment (no biggee, but you should avoid that).  μηδείς (talk) 01:24, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * My apologies, μηδείς. I do know better. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:40, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I am curious, is a lack of fronting typical of Brel, or expected in a Belgian-French accent? We did listen to Aznavour, but never Brel.  Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I really don't find it so notable. I would rather ask "Is a slight lack of fronting..." Yes, Belgian and Northern-France accent sounds a little bit as if sounds came more from the back of the mouth. Then Jacques Brel as a professional singer, does use his full mouth and a lot of air circulation between cheeks. About the final E and what StevenJ81 said: Also the entire Southern France region normal accent use the syllabic final -e /ə/ as their normal way to speak French.
 * μηδείς, the French singers you listened to were great professional choices among the ones who were worldwide famous. Among the greatest however and unfortunately, most were not famous outside the French-speaking world. Jacques Brel of course, and Georges Brassens, Léo Ferré, Barbara, Claude Nougaro, Jean Ferrat, Serge Gainsbourg, among others, are really worth listening. Akseli9 (talk) 08:26, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Akseli9, I didn't realize that about a southern French accent. When you're learning French in the US, they tend to gravitate toward Paris prononciation most of the time. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:40, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, that's also true when you're learning French in France...:-) Akseli9 (talk) 19:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Belgian-French accent = Walloon accent. Sleigh (talk) 04:29, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

change of meaning by misunderstanding context
Bugs Bunny once called Elmer Fudd "Nimrod". Because much of the audience did not understand Bugs's sarcasm in calling him a mighty hunter, nimrod came to mean 'fool'.

I have long wondered whether something similar might have happened to the word erstwhile: it means 'former' but many people seem to think it means 'praiseworthy'. (For example, I once answered a call from someone asking for "your erstwhile sales manager".) Is there some famous literary example of the word such that a reader not knowing the meaning could mis-infer it from context? —Tamfang (talk) 07:36, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Controversies about the word "niggardly" aren't exactly famous literary examples, but the misunderstandings abound. StuRat (talk) 07:52, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The point is probably moot... -- Jayron 32 12:59, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Don't get the reference I'm afraid, could you explain? --Viennese Waltz 13:14, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Nor do I, but a "Jessie" was colloquial for "A cowardly or effeminate man; a male homosexual" long before the song. Is it dated now?
 * I can't answer Tamfang's question either. Laurence Housman wrote of "her erstwhile rival" but he was not as famous as his brother so I don't think that can explain the misunderstanding.  Could anyone confuse erstwhile with esteemed?   D b f i r s   14:07, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, according to the blog post I link below, at least one person is on record reporting that specific conflation. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:33, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry. I had thought everyone was familiar with this misusage.  Rick Springfield, in the song "Jessie's Girl", uses the line "The point is probably moot"; which represents how a misuse of a term becomes the dominant use of the term over time.  The word "to moot" (as a verb) or "moot" as an adjective used to mean "Something brought up for debate", see these definitions here.  That is, a "moot point" or "to moot a point" is to bring up a topic and make it central for making a decision, moot originally meant something was important or vital or being actively discussed.  As used by Springfield in the song (I should note his usage was not the first such misusage, merely one of the most commented on), the term "moot" is being used to mean "trivial, inconsequential, or unimportant", which is pretty much exactly the opposite of what it is supposed to mean.  This misuse has specifically been the point of much commentary, and yet the usage has entered into the lexicon so thoroughly that most people think that a "moot point" means "trivial" rather than "central", as it is supposed to.  See, ,  as just a sampling.  -- Jayron 32 14:16, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Apologies for misunderstanding. I've never heard that usage of the adjective moot on this side of the pond.  Should it be added to our article on Comparison of American and British English?    D b f i r s   14:25, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I can't speak to the original source, but the use of "moot" as "trivial" is well-established in American English. See 3moot (def. 2) in Jayron's link to Merriam-Webster above. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:59, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I would say that describing it as an "error" is a little harsh. In English law, a "moot point" or a "moot question" is one which could be discussed in the abstract at a moot court, but which is irrelevant to the case in hand.  It's not that much of an extension (compared with the OP's original "Nimrod", certainly) for "moot" to mean "irrelevant" outside a legal context, and from there to use "moot" as a verb meaning "ignore, disregard".  Tevildo (talk) 00:27, 10 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, I can see how it happened in American English, but it just didn't in British English, where the original meaning is maintained, and to moot is rare, regional, and means to dig up.   D b f i r s   01:02, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't cite a specific example, but it is clear that many people understand "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" to mean "Where are you, Romeo?" On the other side, there is Robert Browning's famous misunderstanding. --ColinFine (talk) 16:07, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Generally regarding your question, good articles to look at are Catachresis, Semantic change and folk etymology, maybe a bit of Corruption_(linguistics), if you roll that way.
 * (P.S. I'm familiar with the story you tell about Nimrod. But it always rubbed me the wrong way. I know who Nimrod was when I was a kid, and I thought that Bugs Bunny was using Nimrod to mean someone foolish, because Nimrod, whatever else he may have done, also thought that he could build a tower to Heaven. So the same guy can be held up a positive or negative metaphor, no need for any deep misunderstanding.) SemanticMantis (talk) 16:25, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Specifically regarding your question about misuse of "erstwhile", here's a thread discussing a quote from GW Bush - "If you're for one of my erstwhile opponents, that's O.K. Just don't work too hard." Here's  a blog post discussing some examples of the misuse. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:31, 9 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I always took "moot" to mean "no longer relevant", rather than "trivial" as such. Though once something is no longer relevant, I suppose it could be considered trivial.
 * One example of a misuse is in the Christmas carol "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen", which is often sung as if it were about "merry gentlemen".
 * Bugsy often threw references around like that. Like when he yelled at the monster, "Hey! Frankenstein!" Or at Sam, "So long, Captain Kidney!" Or at the sword-wielding magician, "What a performance, D'Artagnan!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Ah, yes, there's also The English Patient which is usually badly pronounced in the US as if there were something wrong with the patient's English (e.g., The Cancer Patient ), as opposed to specifying he's not a French or German patient. μηδείς (talk) 03:05, 10 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I (Detroit accent) pronounce both the same. I'd even have a hard time distinguishing "patients" from "patience".  ...which leads to this joke: "Patient advocate ?  What's the alternative, an impatient advocate ?  'Hurry up and pull the plug already, I've got a 1 o'clock meeting and still need to grab lunch !' " StuRat (talk) 22:25, 10 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Explanation, please? I'm only aware of one way to pronounce "patient". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:00, 11 November 2015 (UTC)


 * And by the way, "patient(s)" and "patience" both derive from the idea of enduring something. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:04, 11 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not aware of any difference in pronunciation between "patient" meaning a hospital resident and meaning the opposite of impatient. Perhaps Medeis refers to the length of the gap between "English" and "patient".  If I were to say "The English-patient", meaning those who are patient with those learning English, I would leave less of a gap between the hyphenated words. StuRat (talk) 18:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Maybe derring-do ? There are also examples of semantic change where the earlier meaning has become largely forgotten; few writers would now use "shambles" or "internecine" in their earlier sense ("slaughterhouse," "violent.") Herbivore (talk) 22:40, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Derring-do is a good example of what Tamfang was talking about. Deor (talk) 22:52, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * "Helpmeet" = "wife" is perhaps another example, derived from a misreading of Genesis 2:18 ("There was not found an help meet for him" = "There was not found an appropriate [meet] companion [help] for him". Tevildo (talk) 23:27, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

About the Original Post, Tamfang, the only misuse in in usage. According to the dictionary, erstwhile only means former, it's not as if the dictionary definition had been changed. Sorry, still no answer to your question about the origins of this (not so widespread) misuse. Akseli9 (talk) 08:00, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The blog post mentioned above by SemanticMantis did suggests plausible reason, if not a literary one: the frequent use of the phrase "my erstwhile colleague" in contexts where said colleague is being praised. But you’re right, no “for sure” answer has turned up. 184.147.131.85 (talk) 19:48, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Not sure if this is relevant, but people often write "ex-patriot" when referring to someone who lives overseas. They of course mean "expatriate", unless they are intending to suggest the person is a traitor to their country, but that's usually not what they mean. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:18, 11 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry folks, I missed the above. The difference is one of stress.  Consider, "He's an English student."  If what is meant is that he's a student studying English, then the phrasal stress is on the first word: "the 'English ˌstudent, not the 'Math ˌstudent."  But if it refers to his nationality, both words get an equal full stress: "I meant the 'English 'Student, not the Can'adian 'student."  When most Americans refer to the movie, The English Patient they emphasize English and only put a secondary stress on patient *As if he were an "English-patient".  Consider the difference in stress between he fed the cheerful patient and he fed the cancer-patient.  In the first case, cheer- and pa- get the same stress, in the second phrase the stress on can- is the strongest. μηδείς (talk) 22:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)


 * There's no difference in stress in the he fed sentences in my dialect. StuRat (talk) 00:52, 12 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I suspect there is, depending on the context, Stu, but you may not be eliciting it from yourself. I would ask you, first, can you say the sentence "He's an English student" in two different ways to indicate either he's from England or he's studying English?  If you can, then my point is that when most people I have heard say the name of the movie, they say it in the second way, the way that implies the patient is being treated for his English (like the stuttering-patient) not that the stuttering patient (the patient who stutters) is being treated for pneumonia.  See prosodic stress. μηδείς (talk) 01:59, 12 November 2015 (UTC)


 * (response to a now-deleted question from a banned user) "A cult following". I never know whether this means a huge following, or one with a very small number of followers but who are extraordinarily dedicated to the subject.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:55, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The etymology of "cult" is interesting, and we have articles on Cult and Cult following. The former is usually insulting, the latter is usually pop culture for a relatively small and enthusiastic fan base. An example of that is that Star Wars is widely popular, while Star Trek has more of a cult following. The term "cult" can be taken to ridiculous extremes. A few presidential campaigns ago, some right-win American fanatic referred to the Roman Catholic Church as a "cult". It might have been a "cult" to the Roman Empire originally, but with at least a billion adherents worldwide, calling it a "cult" is rather silly. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:47, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The latter. StuRat (talk) 05:43, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks, both. I can't put my finger on an example right now, but I've definitely seen examples of things like "So-and-So is already attracting a cult following", meaning that, although he is a relative newcomer at the moment, those who know about him love him, and the expectation is that soon the whole world will know and love him.  In other words, he only has a cult following at the moment because of his newness, but that's just a temporary stage on his way to massive popularity.  I expect this was not the original meaning of "cult following".  True cults never get much beyond their core group of fanatical followers, and the adherents would probably hate it if they lost their exclusivity and ownership.  But that's language for you.  Language change almost always proceeds from error and continues in ignorance, until lexicographers finally acquiesce in tears.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:53, 14 November 2015 (UTC)


 * "Problematic" - meaning "it's something that could be discussed as a problem (exercise)but with no practical application", more commonly used in recent decades to mean "It's full of problems, causes or would cause a problem." Ironically the people who use it thus are often talking about the colour of the bike shed, which other people might think meets the first definition.
 * "Nice" meaning -- um, "nasty".
 * All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:37, 15 November 2015 (UTC).