Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 September 18

= September 18 =

"teaching the King's English"
What does it mean when someone says "teaching the King's English"? What type of English is that? What happens if the speaker speaks English with a heavy regional accent? Does that still count as "speaking the King's English"? Would Australians and Canadians and Americans say they'd "teach someone to speak the King's English", or does the term only apply to British people? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 02:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The "Kings English" or the "Queens English" is the term (informally) used for the variety of standard English as taught in the UK schools (as vocabulary and grammar) coupled with a particular accent known as Received Pronunciation. The term is often used to juxtapose "standard English" against whatever colloquial form of English the interlocutor is speaking, usually some local vernacular form of English which is distinctly different from the standard form by accent, vocabulary, or grammar.  -- Jayron 32 02:31, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Would Standard American English be like an equivalent to Received Pronunciation? Why do most Americans speak this variety of American English while only a minority of British people speak Received Pronunciation? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 02:54, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As for your first question: No, because Received Pronunciation is used by a minority only, as opposed to Standard American English. As for your second question: Because America has neither a king nor a queen (I'm not kidding) . HOOTmag (talk) 07:05, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Conservative Received Pronunciation is spoken by fewer than 2% of the British population. It has been overtaken by "BBC English", not a clearly-defined pronunciation, but an average across non-regional radio and TV presenters.  The term "King's English" often applies to correct use of grammar rather than to the pronunciation of the words.    D b f i r s   09:14, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Since 6 February 1952 it's been "the Queen's English"; I don't think I've ever heard anybody say "the King's English". However, watch this space in about 20 years or so, because it will be changing back again.
 * 20 years? Do you expect HM to live to the age of 109, Alan? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:42, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Consider her genes in combination with progress in gerontology. ---Sluzzelin talk  22:05, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 101 isn't 109. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  06:35, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I got my decades in a muddle. God save the Queen anyway. Alansplodge (talk) 22:25, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I may not be a monarchist, but if you want a shining example of how to behave in the public eye for 70 years, look no further. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:12, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree with User:Dbfirs that it also means "correct use of grammar", in fact I would venture that this is the most common meaning of the word. A well known 19th century manual of grammar by Henry Alford was entitled Queen's English: a Manual of Idiom and Usage. Being British, the phrase is most often used ironically or facetiously in my experience. I have also heard it used to describe the English language as opposed to any other language; I found Why the French can't speak the Queen's English?. Alansplodge (talk) 11:17, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Interesting reading though controversial. I personally don't agree. It is true that the French don't speak English, but it is as well true also for all Latin speakers (Italians, Spanish...) and for all Slavish speakers. In fact the only ones who widespreadly speak English are the Germanic speakers (Dutchs, Germans, Nordics). There are so many criteria, not only the liguistic/grammatical roots, there is also the auditive range within which a language works, and in cases like the Slavish, an historical dimension of culturally "rejecting the language of the West" that is still so powerful decades after the end of USSR. Akseli9 (talk) 11:45, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Quite so; the link was only provided to demonstrate the use of the idiom, rather any endorsement of the contents. Alansplodge (talk) 22:22, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

To the OP: Please just listen to some Queen Elizabeth speeches or radio interviews or such. This is exactly what is called "Queen's English" (or King's English). Of course it is possible for an American, an Australian or a Canadian, to learn to speak that way, sounding English and all. But although it is in my opinion the most beautiful way to speak English, coming from an American, an Australian, a Canadian, surely that would sound a bit unnatural? (of course I may be wrong?). Akseli9 (talk) 11:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There was a recent film "The King's English" about our last monarch, George VI's overcoming of his stammer.  There is no longer a "King's English", just as there is no longer a "King's Bench Division" of the High Court.   I disagree with Akseli9's comment that Latin (I presume he means Romance) speakers don't speak English.   Britons planning a holiday in Portugal should not be put off by this.   They will find they are understood perfectly well. 92.1.55.84 (talk) 13:24, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The King's Speech, actually. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:12, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The King's English is (also) the name of a book on English usage, by H W Fowler and his brother F G Fowler. Tevildo (talk) 21:49, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Jimmy Savile
Does this man's surname rhyme with "travel" or with "Tamil"? And is there any reliable source for this? The pronunciation in the article is currently given as. Is Savile Row pronounced in the same way? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:23, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Travel and yes same as the street. No reliable source needed, it's the only way you could realistically pronounce that. Fgf10 (talk) 23:24, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry but that is nonsense. I am from Yorkshire (like J. Savile himself) and I have always called him Sav - ill. -- Alarics (talk) 09:09, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll trust your experience, assuming you're a Brit, Fgf10. But there no reason I can see that that name might not rhyme with Seville. μηδείς (talk) 02:54, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Or Sav - eel, or Sav - isle. But rhyming with 'travel' seems to have answered the question. Akld guy (talk) 04:11, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ... except for the "And is there any reliable source for this?" part. -- 160.129.138.186 (talk) 15:38, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't understand the Tamil part of the question. The only way Savile could rhyme with Tamil is if Savile were spelt Samil/Sammle/Sammel and pronounced accordingly.  But it isn't and it isn't, so it couldn't.  What am I missing?  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  06:33, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What you are missing is that the person who compared it with "Tamil" was referring only to the vowel, not the consonant. -- Alarics (talk) 09:09, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I see. But Tamil, travel and Savile all have the same vowel.  Well, in my world they do.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  09:47, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Not in mine, however. -- Alarics (talk) 09:58, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * How do they differ? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:14, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Here in northern England, it rhymes with cavil rather than gavel, but I agree that not everyone makes the distinction.   D b f i r s   12:15, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In many American dialects, the last name would be pronounced "suh-VEEL", whereas travel is pronounced "TRA-vul" The stress patterns would be very different. -- Jayron 32 01:05, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The surname Savile may in general receive that pronunciation in those dialects, but when referring to the above-mentioned Jimmy Savile specifically, his name ought to be said the way he said it, or as close as can be managed. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  01:38, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with you 100%. A person is who they say they are, and every person deserves the basic dignity of being referred to by their chosen name.  I was merely commenting on the connection between orthography and pronunciation as would be expected in particular dialects.  Once an individual person has expressed what they want to be called, however, it would only be a total asshole who refused to use their chosen name.  -- Jayron 32 01:46, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Jayron32 has spoken! So it shall be written; so it shall be done!  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:06, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ? -- Jayron 32 12:25, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I was agreeing with your agreement, in a Ramesesesque way. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:29, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Am not sure how Wikipedia resolves Savile's own pronunciation vs RP. Is there a general policy? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:53, 21 September 2015 (UTC)


 * This is being discussed at Talk:Jimmy_Savile-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:51, 19 September 2015 (UTC)