Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 September 6

= September 6 =

Dilly
Do Americans really use the "dilly" to mean exceptional? Can it be used to mean "like dill"? 217.38.96.144 (talk) 21:10, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's an older idiom, sir, but it checks out. I don't see anything wrong with using it for "like or containing or tasting of dill", either; in context you'd presumably be understood. --Trovatore (talk) 22:49, 6 September 2015 (UTC)


 * It is kind of old-fashioned, but it survives in some places. For example, DQ's Dilly Bar, which I assure you does not taste like dill. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not such a common term now, but it was sufficiently in use ca. 1960 that there was a Huckleberry Hound cartoon called Piccadilly Dilly about a Jekyll-and-Hyde situation. Presumably its creators expected kids to be familiar with the term. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:35, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * How does that translate, BB? Presumably nothing to do with Peter Wyngarde singing "Hippie and the Skinhead" about Billy the "queer sexy hippie" "trolling the Dilly". Martinevans123 (talk) 21:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * How does what translate? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:16, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "Piccadilly Dilly" - is dilly an adjective there? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:17, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Dilly is being used as a noun in that title, to mean 'an extraordinary situation'. "We've got a Dilly here in Picaadilly!"  75.148.5.206 (talk) 20:44, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I had no idea it could also be used as a noun in that sense. I'd be very interested to see the etymology, although it's not really my bag. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:52, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The Merriam Webster Web site suggests that it may be an alteration of delightful. By the way, with regard to the OP's question, Wiktionary does include "redolent of dill" among the senses of dilly. Deor (talk) 21:06, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

IPA request
Could somebody give me the IPA spelling for Wikipedia? I need it for an Afd discussion. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:11, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * From our article (Wikipedia), . Tevildo (talk) 23:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Huh. I don't agree with the /ɨ/.  It's an /i/ for me. --Trovatore (talk) 23:41, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hah! Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * For me and most people I discuss the project with in California, the second vowel is "ə", but I know that Jimmy Wales and some other people prefer the "i", or what I call the "long e". Cullen328  Let's discuss it  01:47, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The sound in question should be represented by /ɪ̈/ (the Near-close central unrounded vowel) which describes a sound roughly intermediate between [ɪ] and [ə], because, technically, the true sound represented by /ɨ/ (the Close central unrounded vowel) doesn't occur in most standard dialects of English. As our article indicates, most American sources, however, will use /ɨ/ by convention to represent what should be /ɪ̈/ (I don't really understand why) and Wikipedia, for some reason, has also adopted that convention (see Help:IPA for English, under "Reduced Vowels", where /ɨ/ is defined as being "either [ɪ] and [ə]"). To avoid ambiguity, I would use the proper IPA symbol /ɪ̈/.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 02:47, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's still the wrong sound. I mean, I'm not going to correct you in public if you say it that way, but it really ought to be /i/. --Trovatore (talk) 07:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In careful speech/citation form, I would agree with you, Trovatore. But what I hear in others' (and my own) casual/non-self-conscious speech is closer to the sound described above. I don't think there really can be one correct answer though. I'm sure that different sociolect groups have their own preferred pronunciations.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 07:54, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Bury–berry merger
The discussion above about Haight-Ashbury got me to go look up what I could find out about a "bury–berry merger", and I was a bit surprised not to really find it under that name or anything similar. There's a discussion on wikt:talk:berry where User:Angr opines that "bury" and "berry" are homophones in all accents, but that some accents rhyme them both with "furry".

Is that really so? I pronounce both of them as /bɛri/, but I'm aware that in some accents "bury" is /bʊri/, more like it's spelled. Do those accents also pronounce "berry" as /bʊri/? That would strike me as strange.

On reflection, maybe the reason I didn't find it is that it's not actually a merger at all, but just a variant pronunciation. If it were a merger, presumably I wouldn't have any words that end in /ʊri/, but I do &mdash; hurry, furry, perhaps even burry (as in covered with burrs).

So sorry for the rambling question, but I think the second paragraph at least is something that the desk could take a crack at. --Trovatore (talk) 23:56, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Just a little note &mdash; it's probably more standard to write /ɜri/ rather than /ʊri/ in the above. However, personally, I don't actually distinguish them (I don't round my lips when saying "put", for example).  Maybe that's some other merger?  Would you say I pronounce "put" as /pɜt/?  Our International Phonetic Alphabet chart for English dialects doesn't seem to admit the existence of a standalone, non-reduced /ɜ/ in English. --Trovatore (talk) 00:17, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * See Furry–ferry merger.—Wavelength (talk) 00:44, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I already saw that. What I was really asking is, is it really true that the accents that pronounce "bury" as /bʊri/ (or /bɜri/ as the case may be) necessarily have that merger and pronounce "berry" the same way?  That strikes me as sort of improbable. --Trovatore (talk) 01:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * It seems odd to me also. I did not find it at http://forvo.com/word/berry/#en.  (See Forvo.)  Some speakers might pronounce it thus in compounds (strawberry, raspberry, blackberry, blueberry, cranberry, and so forth).
 * —Wavelength (talk) 01:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Many residents of Bury pronounce the town /ˈbʊrɪ/, though it is /ˈbɛri/ in BBC English. I'm not sure how they pronounce "berry", but I think it's more like /ˈbəɹi/.  Perhaps we have an editor who knows the town well?    D b f i r s   09:47, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Bear in mind that Bury St Edmunds also contains 'Bury' as a standalone word, in a region with a radically different accent to Bury, Lancashire. I strongly suspect that the pronunciation of -bury and -berry generally doesn't match up with the pronunciation of Bury and Berry, and that you may find mergers (or splits) for one that you won't find for the other. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hence the old joke: "I come to Bury St. Edmunds, not to praise him": in my own accent (mixed-up southern English) this does not require any change of pronunciation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 13:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Let me guess: He died after suffering a Caesar. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I can confirm that the good folk of Bury St Endmunds do indeed pronounce it as a homophone with "berry". Although Saint Edmund was buried (or at least enshrined) there, the name of the town is "etymologically connected with borough", a Germanic term originally meaning a fortress, according to our article. Alansplodge (talk) 16:53, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I once heard a radio disc jockey play a request for someone from (as he put it) "Bewry Street, Edmunds". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * @Trovatore: You've claimed you "don't round" your "lips when saying 'put' ". So, do you mean you don't distinguish /ʊ/ from /ʌ/ ? Just for clarification, do you distinguish "look" from "luck"? If you do, then maybe you don't distinguish /ʊ/ from /ə/, do you? However, if you do distinguish /ʊ/ - from /ə/ - and from /ʌ/ as well, and also distinguish /ə/ from /ʌ/, then you probably don't distinguish - the first vowel of "tourist" - from the first vowel of "hurry/furry" (about which you've claimed you pronounce it like /ʊ/). If this is really the case, you should have clarified that from the very beginning.
 * As to me, I do distinguish between: the first vowel of "tourist" (being something between /ʊ/ and /u/), and of "furry" ( /'fəri/ ), and of "hurry" ( /'hʌri/ ), and of "bury" ( /'bɜri/ ). I don't distinguish "berry" from "bury", though.
 * As for your original question: If you pronounce the first vowel "hurry/furry" - like /ə/ - rather than like the first vowel of "tourist", then I don't see any problem in pronouncing - the first vowel of "bury/berry" - like the first vowel of "hurry/furry" - i.e. like /ə/, so I can't see what surprises you. However, according to User:Dbfirs's testimony - that many residents of Bury pronounce the name of their town like /bʊrɪ/ - i.e with the first vowel being like that of "tourist", I'm quite sure they still pronounce "berry" like /'bɜri/. Anyways - I agree with you that, pronouncing it like /bʊri/ - i.e. with the first vowel being like that of "tourist" - would be weird and odd.
 * HOOTmag (talk) 11:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm confused by HOOTmag's comments above because furry is pronounced /ˈfɜːrɪ/ not /ˈfɜrɪ/, and tourist is pronounced /ˈtʊərɪst/ not /ˈtʊrɪst/ in BBC English.  D b f i r s   15:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You should not be confused, because - neither me nor (I guess) Trovatore (being the OP I responded) - speak BBC English. Btw, I've never claimed I pronounce "tourist" like /ˈtʊrɪst/. I've only indicated that I pronounce it as something between /ˈtʊrɪst/ and /ˈturɪst/. HOOTmag (talk) 15:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well you mentioned both me and the residents of Bury, some of whom speak BBC English. I agree that American pronunciations are very different from British ones.    D b f i r s   20:30, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * It may also depend on how the dialect in question deals with reduced vowels. The schwa sound manifests itself differently in different dialects; but for dialects that have the berry/bury merger, they may well pronounce both using whatever the native schwa sound is.  In New England English, for example, the penultimate vowel sound in words like Millbury and strawberry, in casual speech, both get reduced to -"bree", so the words end up pronounced "Mill-bree" and "Straw-bree".  In careful, slow, deliberate speech, the schwa vowel shows up.  -- Jayron 32 15:07, 8 September 2015 (UTC)