Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 January 14

= January 14 =

Gender neutral French given names?
The discussion above got me thinking. The number of ordinary genuine French given names that are completely identical for males and females (I mean in pronunciation and spelling) seems to be extremely small. I've been able to come up with only the following three: Claude, Camille, and Dominique. (Marie can be used for males but only as a middle name, e.g. Victor Marie Hugo, so that doesn't count). In the past there were some other ones such as Anne which is now restricted to females and possibly Philippe now restricted to males. Do you know of other gender neutral French names currently used that I might have overlooked? Do you know of any gender neutral French names that have either become obsolete or have become restricted to one gender only? Contact Basemetal   here  00:52, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Try researching at Category:French feminine given names and Category:French masculine given names and look for commonalities.  Maybe a start?  -- Jayron 32 02:35, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * A simple check by extracting the list of names (without parenthesized qualifications) from each page, then sorting the two lists and using comm, shows that of the 158 female names and 175 male names listed, the only ones in common are the three that Basemetal already listed. --76.69.45.64 (talk) 06:50, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Alix is to be added to your list. Nicole, Cécile, Anne were  epicene nouns but they are no longer. See in French . Marie is also used for males (Condorcet), but very, very rarely nowadays, alone. It is used frequently in compound nouns (not as a middle name) as in Jean-Marie, François-Marie, Bernard-Marie. — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:41, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * In Victor Marie Hugo "Marie" seems to be a middle name and not part of a compound name Victor-Marie. Contact Basemetal   here  17:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * In France we usually don't use the middle name(s). (Except for official forms: "nom et prénoms dans l'ordre de l'état-civil"). Hugo is known as "Victor Hugo". — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:30, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Google searching with the entry "prénoms mixtes" gives more results, of which a lot are very rare though, , , . Another more commonly used name with the same spelling is Sacha. Anne, Philippe, Ambre et Tiphaine in the Middle Age were male, today they are female-only. Maxence was female, today it is almost exclusively male. Akseli9 (talk) 10:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Was Anne ever really a male name? I thought it was unique to Anne de Montmorency, who was named after his godmother, Anne of Brittany. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:27, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * He was. But at the time it seems the name was considered to be "epicene". I've just learned a new word. You may enjoy this excerpt (I've put the time into the link but just in case that doesn't work it's 59 m 13 s into the video) from this 1937 French comedy where Honorin (Fernandel) who is traveling back in time from the 20th c. has a slight grin when he hears Montmorency is called "Anne" (as by 1937 Anne had become exclusively feminine). Contact  Basemetal   here  15:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * What's the deal with "Philippe"? Basemetal says it's only male these days, but you say it's only female? &#x2013; b_jonas 11:40, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I mixed the few names I found in the French websites I linked above. They say Philippe was female now it is male. They also say Anne was male now it's female. Yet another example comes to mind to complete Basemetal's list: Cyrille usually is the female version of Cyril, but you'll find some male Cyrille born before the 80s, before Cyrille was widely accepted as a neutral name as opposed to male-only. Akseli9 (talk) 13:06, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * There were five kings of France named Philippe (the first one, born in 1052, had a Russian mother named Anne, even though Russian in 1052 meant something slightly different; in any case did his Orthodox mother pick this Greek name for him?), several dukes of Burgundy (first one in 1346), several dukes of Orléans (first one in 1336), etc. so there's no doubt that it's been been used for males for a long time and probably even before it was used for females, if it ever was. But did it use to be used for females too? Well: (1) Akseli says so (2) French WP says so (alleging 17th c. genealogical documents but no source) (3) I've myself seen Philippa of Hainaut called "Philippe de Hainaut" in some French sources. But was this an alternate spelling of her name in original historical documents? Was this actually the original French spelling and is the use of "Philippa" in the French sources that use it actually borrowed from English sources? Is this a recent backformation from "Philippa"? I don't know. Contact Basemetal   here  14:46, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If you can read French, this page gives some information about Philippe used as a noun for female people in France. One example is the daughter of Roger IV de Foix, but in English she is called "Philippa" (Roger_IV,_Count_of_Foix) — AldoSyrt (talk) 16:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * When I go to your geneanet link the site ignores the "topic" part of my link and gets me to a generic forum page (in English). But when I Google "Philippe prénom féminin" I can clearly see the link you supplied. Something does not seem to be working. Aldo, are you registered to that site? Could my problem be that I'm not registered? Contact Basemetal   here  17:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Very sorry. I am not registered and it works (the language of my browser (IE) is French, but my present IP is not French). The link is to the French forum of geneanet. Try to change the language (bottom of the page for me in French) . — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:04, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * A list of male people named Anne on the French Wiki here. One of the most famous (with Montmorency) is Turgot. — AldoSyrt (talk) 13:17, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * To that list add (it's not there) Anne Danican Philidor. Contact Basemetal   here  14:05, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The French wiki page doesn't intent to provide a comprehensive list. Nonetheless you can click on this page on "Pour les articles sur les personnes portant ce prénom, consulter la liste générée automatiquement." Anne Danican Philidor is on the third generated page (with my browser configuration): click on "Page suivante". Unfortunately, the list makes no difference between male/female people — AldoSyrt (talk) 15:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you Aldo. And the French WP fr:Anne Danica Philidor article points to yet another one: Anne de Noailles (not to be confused with the French poet of Romanian origin Anna de Noailles who was a woman). Contact Basemetal   here  17:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I've just remembered another one: Stéphane. It's not mentioned in the French WP "épicene" article supplied above (but Aldo would probably say that article was not meant to be comprehensive). It is mentioned in one of the links supplied by Akseli. But I remembered it independently Contact  Basemetal   here  17:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure Stéphane is marked as a masculine name in French and would be unusual for women; I think the female equivalent is Stéphanie. -- Jayron 32 17:25, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * You are right it is pretty unusual for women, but it is not completely unknown: fr:Stéphane Bissot, fr:Stéphane Audran. The latter is a pseudonym but not one that intends to masquerade as a masculine name like "George" in George Sand. Now that of course does not make "George" into a feminine given name. But I wonder why she picked "George" instead of "Georges". In any case, I think I might even have run into females named Stéphane, though very rarely (if at all), that's why I've just remembered it. Contact Basemetal   here  17:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I was specifically limiting myself to "genuine" French names because once you start expanding the list to Sacha (from Russian) or Pat (from English) you don't know where you'll end. I wonder if Alix is really a genuine French name. And even if it is, whether its use for males might not be a recent development due to the popularity of the comics series The Adventures of Alix. In any case the real French name which corresponds to it, namely Alice is really only for females, at least in France, whatever influence Alice Cooper (born Vincent Damon Furnier) might have had there (and his choice of Alice was probably a provocation, because it is exclusively feminine, including in the US). Contact Basemetal   here  17:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I know two women named Alix. I don't know any man with this first name (except the one from the comic series). For what it worth... — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:11, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * This guy Marie-Dominique-Auguste Sibour is probably actually Marie Dominique Auguste Sibour and the hyphens must be spurious. That happens sometimes with multiple given names even in French sources that ought to know better, even though distinction between compound names and middle names may not always be clear in the original documents. In any case I've heard of French double given names (Jean-Claude, etc.) but never of French triple given names. So that example more probably fits under the males having "Marie" as a first name (like Condorcet supplied above by Aldo). And so would Marie Dominique Bouix. However in both these cases the fact that they were priests and the combination "Marie Dominique" make me suspicious. I wonder if that was their original name. I know for a fact that was not the case with Marie-Dominique Chenu and Marie-Dominique Philippe. So, so far as I know, "Marie-Dominique" is not to be added to the list. Contact Basemetal   here  17:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * In the book "150 ans au coeur de Rome. Le Séminaire français 1853-2003", he is called Marie-Dominique Bouix (with an hyphen). — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:20, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Demonstration of Speech Shadowing
Sorry if this is wrong desk to ask at, I wasn't sure if it fit here, science or humanities. Does anyone know of an online video demonstrating Speech shadowing? I've seen it done once before (Alan Davies doing it on an episode of QI) but can't seem to turn up a video demonstrating it. GoldenRing (talk) 10:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * has several results, with variable quality.Llaanngg (talk) 15:44, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Hitler's Mein Kampf 2016 reprint
What's wrong with it? Why are some readers unhappy of its reestablishment? -- Mr. Zoot Cig Bunner (talk) 18:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Mein_Kampf covers this. Rojomoke (talk) 20:20, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The brouhaha over this book suggests a parallel to what Richard Armour said about Marx's books: "Widely discussed, especially by those who have never read it." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:01, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Sydney Smith: I never read a book before reviewing it; it prejudices a man so. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:29, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delaying in getting back to you guys.
 * Thanks guys. I'll read through... -- Mr. Zoot Cig Bunner (talk) 19:07, 16 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Mein Kampf is the nazi probaganda book. It is made to catch failed and un or less educated people. The NS propaganda is hate against all Jewish, an outdated hypotesis of racism. It makes people work for the propaganda and teaches hate. A minority still belives in it. 20 % of the German are educated in a way, finding some truth in it. What they do not know, the 1930s had not todays inexpensive life standard. Much household equipent was less obsolescent and inherited over generations. Stealing it from rich people was a idea of the poor and that who lost everithing due inflation during the end of the 1920s. As the Jewish were excluded from craft business since the middle age, many of them got successful in banking business. Some became rich. Turning the globe, some poor people still blame their relegion for their pooriety. As the relegion does not allow critisism, they blame the successful and rich people for their pooriety and some murder, steal or burn their property. Those people who agree with such propaganda are not able to keep business and welfare in todays level. You find the prisons full of them. They don't see their mistakes and some realy are victums of their religios and social clans, fighting agains education. Germany does not allow home schooling for such reasons. -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 19:06, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Hans Haase (有问题吗) : Thanks Hans, I needed a summary too. Regards. -- Mr. Zoot Cig Bunner (talk) 19:10, 16 January 2016 (UTC)