Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 July 10

= July 10 =

Pronunciation of "taco"
What is the correct pronunciation of the Mexican dish "taco"? Is is tah-co, tack-o or tuck-o? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:36, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * According to Dictionary.com, [tah-koh] is the most commonly used when speaking in English. --Lgriot (talk) 15:28, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Here's a TV ad ca. 1979 where they say it multiple times. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:43, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:32, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Yo quiero Taco Bell with a proper Spanish accent (BB's ad has an English, aspirated t, which sounds funny in Spanish). μηδείς (talk) 21:35, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Interesting that you would call that a Spanish accent. It sounds Mexican to me, or at least what the creators thought would sound Mexican to Americans, the latter distinction being too fine for my limited expertise.  But I guess I know what you meant. --Trovatore (talk) 04:13, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I am not quite sure what you are getting at, but basically the Chihuahua sounds like a native speaker of Spanish (and I have been mistaken as generic or native Mexican speaker quite a few times, to the point where I was once asked "De donde en Oaxaca viene?" But my point is that the dog has standard unaspirated stops, while the ad BB provided is accurate for American, but to Spanish speakers has an obvious English accent.
 * One might consider that in standard German and English, word-initial /p,t,k/ have a slight h sound, while this is uncommon in most other languages, such as French and Spanish, Russian or Japanese, which lack aspiration, or languages like Hindi and isiZulu where aspiration or its lack turn two sequences of sounds into entirely different words.
 * Here's an excellent, short (<10 min) video, that explains aspiration, and actually makes quite clear, explicitly, the difference between /taco/ in Spanish and American (yay!) and British (ho hum) sp heech. μηδείς (talk) 00:42, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Does he sound like a native speaker of Spanish from Spain? I wouldn't have said so, based on my experience of watching Spanish movies on Netflix.  He has a "singsong" quality that I associate with Mexican Spanish.  But I could certainly be wrong. --Trovatore (talk) 00:54, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You are correct, he definitely has a Mexican accent. I had it described to me by a Mexican woman of Mestizo origin as el hablar jalado de los vatos "the drawn-out speech of the guys" and it (as well as dropping final esses) are characteristics of male speech. I spent the last 20 minutes trying to find anything about this on the web, but there's little I could find. μηδείς (talk) 17:13, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * , to make sure I have been clear, when I was referring to the dog having a Spanish accent, as opposed to BB's example, I was talking about a contrast between the consonants in English and Spanish. But within the Spanish Language, the dog's vowels are Mexican (male, not upper-class), in comparison to vowels in Iberian Spanish (so far as I am familiar with it).  So one contrast was English/Spanish, and the other was Spain/Mexico. μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm, yes, that's kind of what I thought you were saying, but it still strikes me as an odd way to put it. I would be taken aback, in any context, to hear someone say I was using an "English accent", even when speaking another language.
 * On another note, about the dropping of the esses, I thought they actually turned into [h]? And I don't think it's only men who do it; I hear it from the Latina women on Orange is the New Black.  Or are these two separate phenomena, some people who turn &lt;s> into [h] and others who drop it entirely? --Trovatore (talk) 21:46, 12 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The developmental sequence, is [-s] > [-h] > [-0], and of the two dozen Oaxacans I worked (and for a time, lived) with, the men universally used [-h] or [-0] except in the case of elicitation forms, while the women never reduced the consonant under any circumstance.


 * I don't watch much TV, but the Hispanic lady on that show with the guy who was the father on Married, With Children has the reduction, and it strikes me as very Caribbean. I will have to go into storage, as I have seceral books that address the issue.  My personal sample was Mestizo Mixtec people from the state of Oaxaca from the late 80's to the early 90's. I do find that Mexican Spanish is much closer to Andalucian or standard Spanish than are the Carribean dialects.


 * BTFW, how does one make the null symbol, rather than using plain zero??? μηδείς (talk) 01:35, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Interesting, thanks. The show is set in a federal prison in New York, so maybe the women are largely Puerto Rican?  I wouldn't be able to tell. --Trovatore (talk) 04:20, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, as an American, when I have had the misfortune (although at least he tries) of hearing Dubya speak Spanish, I have always thought that he has an English accent, not an American one. Both GA and RP use [th], not [t] as their phone for the /t/ phoneme. μηδείς (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2016 (UTC)


 * "Sp heech"? It is my understanding that the unaspirated allophone of unvoiced plosives is used in English for syllables beginning with /s/. So, k hit, but skit. Enzingiyi (talk) 04:11, 16 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Ugh, you are right about "Sp heech", I was cut-and-pasting and not paying attention. μηδείς (talk) 18:37, 16 July 2016 (UTC)


 * To my American ear, the T sounds the same from the 1970s ad and the 2000s ad. However, to answer the OP strictly, of his choices "tah-co" is the best one. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:31, 12 July 2016 (UTC)


 * There is indeed a difference, but it's not a difference that matters so far as meaning in English or Spanish. It just gives that "he's got an accent" feeling in an extended dialog.  But other languages, like Hindi and isiZulu have an essential contrast between the [th] of English in words like taco and the Spanish /tako/, as opposed to ['tha-khoʊ].


 * This is a technical matter that really requires the knowledge of at least two (preferably 3 or more) languages and 12 credit hours of general linguistics. It's an acquired skill, like the ability to describe music, or identify a monocot vs a dicot at sight.


 * If, Bugs, you listen closely to the dog, it should sound almost like he is saying "dako bel". I am curious if you have ever heard the term "bendeho", meaning "asshole"? μηδείς (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Not to be confused with bendreth. --Trovatore (talk) 02:07, 13 July 2016 (UTC)


 * As Medeis says, there is a difference. Aspirating Spanish stops will give you away as a non-native speaker every time. The difference exists in English too, but with no contrasting minimal pairs so we hear them as the same phoneme unless we're trained otherwise. For instance, in "tub" the /t/ is [tʰ] while in "stub" the /t/ is [t]. And, Medeis, I don't mean to be one, but it's "pendejo". ;)  --William Thweatt TalkContribs 01:23, 13 July 2016 (UTC)


 * We agree completely, WilliamThweatt, my use of the spelling "bendejo" was solely because when I worked for years in a restaurant, half of whose staff was Oaxacan, and the rest from the US East Coast, the Americans adopted pinche, flaca, guey, mota, verga, vato and various other words, but no one would believe me that the word was "pendejo" and not "bendejo" because they were unfamiliar with the difference of aspiration, and identified the lack of aspiration with the voiced English /b/.
 * How it was that the Americans got "pinche" right, I don't know, but I never asked them to spell it. Perhaps because it was used in every sentence?  Hehehe.  Nevertheless, "bendejo" was improperly said with a very strongly voiced consonant, /b/.
 * In any case, imagine the upset, when I had to explain to the lead waitress that "la vejote" didn't meant "the boss" but was closer to "the hag". I really miss those days.  Thatcher was PM.  I had various attractive offers of heterosexual marriage.... μηδείς (talk) 23:44, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Audrey Hepburn over-strongly voiced her consonants, so that her p's often sounded like b's, her t's like d's, etc. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:09, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Medeis, you wrote "Caribbean" twice and spelt it two different ways!  You also say you received "various attractive offers of heterosexual marriage".   I understand why you're making the distinction, but back in the eighties I don't think a girl would have received anything else.
 * Portuguese velhote means "oldster", obviously derived from velho, "old".  This word, like its Spanish equivalent, can also mean "gaffer", which in English at least can have the additional meaning of "boss". 86.176.84.174 (talk) 12:47, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the derivation, but am also quite sure they were being mockingly derogatory. (The suffix -ote/-ota is usually derogatory.  It's also odd they used -ote, it may have been intentional, or may have been due to an a > e vowel-shift that occurred in some words. E.g., mear > mier and billar' > biller)  The usage stopped and the staff were very apologetic as soon as I spoke up.
 * As for Carribean, I do the same thing with canibbal. μηδείς (talk) 18:32, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I was surprised to read that.  In Brazil, garota is a perfectly respectable word for a girl.   Another word they use is  moça.   The Portuguese equivalent is rapariga - now that is derogatory in Brazil. 86.176.84.174 (talk) 19:50, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Malay: Range of meanings of "Tupai"
According to the German Wikipedia, the Malay term Tupai is used both for Tree squirrels and Tree shrews. While this appears to be basically true, it is probably a little more complicated: id:Tupai is about tree shrews, id:Bajing and ms:Tupai about squirrels as a whole. Online dictionaries usually translate both "Tupai" and "Bajing" as "squirrel". So what is the spectre spectrum of meanings? Concrete questions: --KnightMove (talk) 14:55, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) Is it accurate to say that in modern Malaysian, the term "Tupai" is used for squirrels only, but in Indonesian for tree shrews only?
 * 2) Is it possible to restrict the usage of "Tupai" for squirrels to certain subgroups of squirrels, or does it include all of them?
 * 3) Is there a way to circumscribe the original spectre of meanings, like "small mammal living in the trees"?
 * I'm afraid I can't help you with Malay or Indonesian, but this being the language desk, maybe you wouldn't mind me pointing out that spectre and spectrum are quite distinct words in English :-) --Trovatore (talk) 05:21, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Indeed. In fact, I knew this already, but it seems that my cerebral vocabulary storage was seeing spooks. :-) Thank you. --KnightMove (talk) 08:46, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Google's pronunciation alphabet
What is the pronunciation alphabet that Google uses for its definitions called? I have never seen it before, it is quite hard to make out, and so I am thinking that, if it is not easy to read, they might as well use IPA instead.

See for example concubine which gives: /ˈkäNGkyəˌbīn/

If they were using some English alphabet-friendly mechanism like dictionary.com concubine [kong-kyuh-bahyn], I would understand, but I am puzzled by Google's choice. --Lgriot (talk) 15:24, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * According to this, and the way I would say it, it's more like "KONK-you-bine". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:47, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Agreed, although I prefer IPA, I'd use BB's respelling. Google's looks like it should be KANK-yuh-bean. μηδείς (talk) 21:15, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I am asking the name of the "alphabet" or system that google uses for pronunciation guidance. (I know how to pronounce that word) --Lgriot (talk) 16:09, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I haven't read it yet, but the answer might be in Google Dictionary. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:28, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Lgriot, I don't know that the system has a specific name, but such systems are discussed at Pronunciation respelling for English. A number of such systems have been used in various dictionaries, especially American ones, differing a bit in the diacritics used and the manner of indicating stress. (Without doing any further investigation beyond your concubine example, I'll say that the Google system looks pretty similar to that used in the New Oxford American Dictionary.) Deor (talk) 16:29, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * One suggestion in this forum thread: English Language & Usage Stack Exchange - What phonetic notation is Google dictionary using? is a Pronunciation respelling for English system, possibly that used by the New Oxford American Dictionary (sorry User:Deor, I typed this without reading your post above properly).Alansplodge (talk) 20:24, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you all. --Lgriot (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Google Dictionary says Google uses Oxford dictionaries since 2010 and their respelling system can be seen here.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:04, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

"Lola" and Language.
(For the purpose of this question...)I'm David. If I say Which of these is the proper interpretation of the second part of the sentence. Also, would it be different without the comma after engineer? Yes, this is in regards to the lyrics of Lola (song).Naraht (talk) 23:54, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm glad I'm an engineer, and so is Mike.
 * 1) Mike is glad that David is an engineer.
 * 2) Mike is glad that Mike is an engineer.
 * 3) Mike is an engineer.
 * 4) David is glad that Mike is also an engineer.
 * I think they're all possible meanings. At first I thought meaning 1 was not possible, but now I realize it is. --Trovatore (talk) 23:57, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I only hazily remember "Lola", which I'll put aside. &para; For me, (1), (2) and (4). &para; Because (2) is permissible, (3) of course can be inferred. However, this doesn't answer the question. Instead, you're asking for the (sic) proper interpretation of the second part of the sentence; and no, for me (3) definitely isn't one. (I'm very surprised that it's possible for Trovatore.) -- Hoary (talk) 01:55, 11 July 2016 (UTC)


 * There is no such thing as "the proper interpretation" of the second part of the sentence. It is multiply ambiguous. Some of the readings are more likely than others, and some of them are context dependent. This remains true with or without a comma (though the likelihood of the options may change. --ColinFine (talk) 09:27, 11 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Alternative (3) does not allow to deduce that Mike is an engineer.  If you want to say that you could rephrase it as

I'm glad I'm an engineer. Mike is also an engineer.

If you want to say that Mike is an engineer and glad of that fact you could write

I'm glad I'm an engineer. Mike is also an engineer and glad that he is.

Alternative (4) is impossible. I see no ambiguity in the sentence at all. Maybe if we could see the lyrics or hear the song we could judge if that is what the lyricist intended to say. I just googled the lyric and there's nothing about this at all. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 11:24, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * C'mon Stanmore, aren't you familiar with The Kinks' ending lines of Lola? "But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man, And so is Lola."  Of course, the questioner is asking about this construction in general, not only in this particular song. -- ToE 13:30, 11 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Because of its controversial nature Ray Davies left these lyrics deliberately vague. However, the nature of the song escaped BBC censorship except for two words: they objected to the trademarked "Coca Cola" and insisted it was substituted with "cherry cola". --TammyMoet (talk) 16:27, 11 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, by 1970 the allusion would not have worried the censors.  In 1967 Arnold Layne by Pink Floyd was banned - but only by a single pirate radio station. 86.168.123.201 (talk) 18:16, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It's funny to hear of a pirate radio station suddenly concerned about ethics. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:23, 12 July 2016 (UTC)


 * It might not be all that easy to find words that rhyme with "Lola". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:28, 12 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Can we agree that the form violates at least one Gricean maxim? —Tamfang (talk) 23:10, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

By convention, the "so is" should apply to the first anteceding part - thus Mike is glad that David is an engineer. While not as much fun as "eats, shoots, and leaves" this is still a case where grammar does have an answer. Consider "I am glad I am 70, and Gladys is 65, and so is Mike." The addition of one additional bit makes clear that the sentence must end up referring to the first part. If we then remove the "Gladys" bit, the antecedent must remain the same. Collect (talk) 13:34, 16 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Now you see why lawyers don't put commas in contracts.  "I am glad I am 70 and Gladys is 65, and so is Mike" is something different from "I am glad I am 70, and Gladys is 65 and so is Mike". 86.176.84.174 (talk) 14:39, 16 July 2016 (UTC)