Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 July 17

= July 17 =

Douaouda
Can I get an IPA pronunciation of this city. DTLHS (talk) 18:13, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I can only give you the guidance that this is a French transcription of an Arabic name, and "ou" normally stands for [ʊ] post-vocalically and [u] otherwise. Arabic words are usually stressed on the penultimate, unless the final syllable is heavy, which here it is not.  So [du'aʊ-da] (doo-OW-da) would be expected.  But this is an educated guess at best.  Here is the Arabic article, which I cannot read https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/دواودة
 * μηδείς (talk) 19:58, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Arabic phonology doesn't permit vowel sequences, so this is most likely [du'waw-da] in Arabic. On the other hand, this name is probably of Berber origins, and I haven't a clue what the Berber pronunciation could be. --51.9.188.30 (talk) 21:10, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I wonder if there's a French ref desk? I am sure someone there could help. I'm not disagreeing about the rules against vowel sequences, the same exists in (the unrelated) isiZulu so you get glides (y or w) inserted where necessary.  But names like Auda ibu Tayi of the Howeitat make it clear such things are a matter  of convention and analysis.
 * I have seen people argue that languages of the Caucasus may have no phonemic vowels, since y and w give coloration, and the presence or absence of a short or long mid-vowel (ə or a) is fully predictable/non contrastive. That analysis has even been suggested by some for pre-PIE.
 * Or we could even speculate that the word is Dwowda, or there's an unmarked glottal stop lurking in the French orthography. We need a reference (I spent about 20 minutes looking, or an informant. μηδείς (talk) 23:43, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * See fr:Wikipédia:Oracle.—Wavelength (talk) 23:55, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You can ask the people at Bibliothèque nationale de France, Paris, Frrance,
 * via http://www.bnf.fr/fr/collections_et_services/poser_une_question_a_bibliothecaire.html.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 23:58, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I have asked the question in French, here. I only caught myself making one mistake, creating a nonexistent "pregunter" for "demander" from the Spanish "preguntar", but if anyone wants to check me up, it will help. μηδείς (talk) 03:18, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * My recent affair with Arabic was more than half a year ago and I might forget much, but this waw-alif-waw combination bothers me, as there are few if any Arabic words that can contain such a combination, only the name of the letter wāw itself comes into my mind, so I have little idea how to interpret it at all. However, bearing in mind that this is not an average Arabic word, but a place name and particularly a Maghrebi place name, anything is possible, so there is no point in adjusting the name into Standard Arabic, but it must be taken at its face value, that is in Algerian Arabic it might be pronounced something like /dwa(ː)wda/, while into English it might be rendered as /ˈdwaʊdɑː/ or /ˈdwɑːʊdɑː/. In French it is simpler, /dwauˈda/ (in three syllables).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:16, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * waw-alif-waw combination bothers me, as there are few if any Arabic words that can contain such a combination -- دواوين [dawa:wi:n], the plural of diwan, is Standard Arabic. --217.140.96.140 (talk) 12:06, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Still, it is a loanword, and I'm not sure how many such words exist in Arabic. Could you provide other ten such words with this combination?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:29, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * has 707 such words. --217.140.96.140 (talk) 11:11, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Per a suggestion at the French Wikipedia, you can go here to Google Translate and listen to the little speaker "liste" icons and hear the suggested pronunciation. The French would be [du-a-u-da].  I won't attempt the Arabic. μηδείς (talk) 02:21, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I just did a test of the pronunciations Google gives. It seems to have a large dictionary for Englisy, but then gets down to guessing.  It got the shibboleths Spuyten Duyvil, Absecon, Quahog, Schuylkill and Pennsauken all correct. But Bala Cynwyd "Balla Kinwood" in the Philly area was neither correct to the American or Welsh, and Passyunk (Locally pronounced "PASH-unk") which it totally blew, giving PASS-uh-nick; even inserting a spurious vowel between the final n and k. μηδείς (talk) 02:46, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I still do not understand what you are trying to do. What pronunciation did you want to find? In French it is easy and obvious (read as written), in English it is not so straightforward, but can be deduced and adopted, in Arabic it is much trickier as we need a native speaker of the particular dialect, or better still, a native of that location (so it is pretty hopeless to find one in French Wikipedia).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I am not the OP, you will have to ask User:DTLHS to clarify his intentions. In any case, nothing you have said contradicts what I and others have said above. μηδείς (talk) 17:32, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean that. I was just curious. Indeed, it is bad when OPs do not specify and do not answer back. As if we answer nobody.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:09, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Medical tautology
Expressions like "placed in a medically induced coma" and "acquired brain injury" amuse me.

Doesn't the verb "placed" automatically mean that it was medically induced, and hence isn't saying "medically induced" unnecessary? If you slip into a coma as a result of some medical condition and without human intervention, you have not been "placed" there.

Now, I can see that it might in general be necessary to classify brain injuries into congenital, acquired and whatever else. But when referring to the case of a specific person who we know wasn't born that way, we ipso facto know that they suffered some injury in the very or relatively recent past. So why do we need to say "acquired" when referring to their brain injury? Or is there some subtle nuance I'm missing here? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:02, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not all people know that you can "medically induce" a coma, so the "medically induced" is a welcome additional bit of info which clarifies and amplifies the "placed." The "medically" also suggests (don't know if justifiedly) that it's a safe, controlled process, i.e. something other than clubbing the patient, and that they could "deduce" the patient from the coma at any time. "Acquired" is redundant, agreed. Asmrulz (talk) 22:36, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Perhaps not all people know what you say. But do any people believe that orthodox medical practice extends to clubbing people or using other violent or Hypo Hippocratically inappropriate ("do no harm") methods?  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:32, 17 July 2016 (UTC)


 * A man goes to a doctor and says "Doc, I don't know why I have this headache." The doctor says, "Oh, that's just idiopathic cephalgia.  You can pay at the desk"  "Oh, that's a relief doc, what is 'idiopathic cephalgia', anyway?"  The doctor says, "It's Greek for a headache whose cause we don't know." μηδείς (talk) 23:53, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I once had a job transcribing medical reports. I saved this bit: "At this point the etiology of the [symptom] is still unclear to me; it could possibly be idiopathic but, given that his symptoms have resolved and [test results], most likely his [symptom] has unclear etiology." —Tamfang (talk) 05:20, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I suppose "medically induced" could also imply "caused by drugs not working as intended/incompetence/etc" (or at least, someone might interpret it as that). Adding "placed" makes it clear that it was intentional.  Iapetus (talk) 12:22, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. The entire sentence is needed for clarity. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:21, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing it. Once we know doctors are involved, and once we read "placed", that can only mean that they used a medically appropriate method to procure a coma in the patient.  "Placed in a coma" tells me all I need to know.  That is, unless I assume some kind of unorthodox practice; but in a general context where the standard rigours and qualifications and registration protocols apply, such an assumption would be contra-indicated. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:53, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Not all of the public will necessarily make the logical connections you're making. "Placed in a medically induced coma" is clear as a bell. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:33, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


 * WHAG here, but "acquired brain injury" distinguishes it from one you were born with (cerebral palsy or other such condition). IANAD and all that. TammyMoet (talk) 14:34, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


 * That phrase "Hypocratically inappropriate" is not very doctor - friendly.  I suggest replacing it with Hippocratically inappropriate.   There was a report in the paper this morning about a surgeon found guilty by the General Medical Council of having an inappropriate relationship with a patient.   This leads to automatic striking off, but in this case it didn't because he is such a good surgeon they decided we couldn't afford to lose him.   There's also the story of a man who didn't feel like work so he asked his doctor for a sick note.   The doctor obliged, giving the illness as plumbum pendulens.   I don't know what the acronym IANAD means, (or WHAG for that matter), but terminology like "Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome" (AIDS) does narrow down the pathology. 92.8.220.116 (talk) 17:23, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Spelling corrected, thanks. Not sure how the rest of your post contributes to the resolution of the question. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:53, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * what's plumbum pendulens? swinging lead? and...? Asmrulz (talk) 01:48, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * oh, beer belly? is that the joke?Asmrulz (talk) 02:14, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * More on the Latin here:.  The expression "to fathom out" has the same derivation.   As for unnecessary descriptions, I heard a good one travelling in to work this morning:


 * Your next King's Cross service arriving and departing from platform 2 at 07:33


 * ''posting by banned user removed. – Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I never heard this expression. Our expression for an idle (or, rather, futile) task is "to knock pears down from the pear trees by beating their trunks with one's %$@." Don't know what it is in Latin Asmrulz (talk) 10:55, 19 July 2016 (UTC)


 * (I indented the above posts for clarity). Amazing how a question on medical tautology can lead to a discussion of something very much unrelated.  Robert Frost would approve, "knowing", as he did, "how way leads on to way".  May using one's %$@ to beat pears from a tree become a much-travelled road. Those who do not possess a %$@ may observe the spectacle with frissons of pleasure.  Or horror.  Whichever.  :) --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:16, 20 July 2016 (UTC)