Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 July 20

= July 20 =

Do we use italics or not, when a foreign language title also includes parenthetically an English translation?
Look at Musik im Bauch. In the very opening words, it says Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly). Why is the parenthetical component not italicized? What's the reason for such a rule? What's the rationale? I edited the article so that the phrase/title "Music in the Belly" was italicized. And I was told that the Wikipedia rule is that it not be italicized. The German title should be italicized; but the English translation title, not. Huh? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:03, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * That's a good question. Check out Symphony No. 3 (Beethoven), in which both the German title and its English translation are italicized. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:39, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * What German title? Do you mean "Sinfonia eroica"?  That's Italian. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:07, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Good point. Did it even have a German title? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Not apart from de:3. Sinfonie (Beethoven). --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:03, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


 * See Manual of Style/Titles.—Wavelength (talk) 01:49, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


 * [Please see Microcontent: How to Write Headlines, Page Titles, and Subject Lines—Wavelength (talk) 01:52, 20 July 2016 (UTC)]


 * (1) So is the English translation italics or not italics? (2) What was the relevance of the second link (Microcontent: How to Write Headlines, Page Titles, and Subject Lines)?  I didn't understand that.  Did I miss something?   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:18, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It depends on whether the English translation is also used as a title. It's easier with books, movies and other stuff that use words and have posters/covers/whatever. Music's a universal language, but looking at published sheet music or album track listings might find your answer. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:03, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks like part of the sheet music's title to me. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:09, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


 * (1) As the examples show, if a work is well known by an English title, then the English title has normal formatting for titles (italics and applicable capitals); otherwise, the English translation is without special formatting (no italics) and in sentence case. (2) Your heading ("Do we use italics or not, when a foreign language title also includes parenthetically an English translation?") is unnecessarily long.  A shorter heading ("Title translations in italics") is better.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 05:55, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


 * As to your second point -- Your heading ("Do we use italics or not, when a foreign language title also includes parenthetically an English translation?") is unnecessarily long. A shorter heading ("Title translations in italics") is better. -- nah.  There was some ridiculous brouhaha about this topic over at another Help Desk.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:17, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The purpose of the let the reader know the phrase is foreign, even if it appears possibly English. No vote means "Don't vote" in Spanish, and something else in English.  In Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly), the italicized part is a mere translation, obviously English, and not part of the original author's title.  In Symphony No. 3 (Beethoven), Beethoven's name is being treated as part of the entire title, it is not a translation, although there are other ways of handling that, such as  Beethoven's Symphony No. 3, "Eroica" μηδείς (talk) 05:47, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I say the unitalicized bit is obviously English, and Stanford says the title is Musik im Bauch = Music in the belly = Musique dans le ventre : für 6 Schlagzeuger und Spieluhren : 1975, Werk Nr. 41. Wikipedia's article title is just the uniform title, which also covers Tierkreis [sound recording] : für Spieluhren ; Musik im Bauch. Our article is more about the live music than the recording, so if I ran this zoo, I'd italicize the English/French parenthetical in English/French Wikipedia, but not Norwegian Wikipedia. (Norwegian Wikipedia doesn't even mention it, anyway, and French Wikipedia suggests ours instead.) InedibleHulk (talk) 09:40, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * In the Musik im Bauch = Music in the belly = Musique dans le ventre : für 6 Schlagzeuger und Spieluhren : 1975, Werk Nr. 41 case, if you were to leave only the English unitalicized, it would have the effect of implying some weird emphasis on the English name. Italics are used for various purposes, and in that example the emphatic lack of italics would be running at the cross purpose of using italics for titles. μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Now I'm confused, too. All good, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:04, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Italics are used to show emphasis: "I don't care what your dog does to your daughter, but if he bites my daughter, I'll have the sheriff put him down." Or to indicate a phrase is not in English no vote in Spanish literally means "Don't (you singular) vote", which is not what it means in English.  Or it can be used to indicate the title of certain works, including the names of novels: Catch 22 vs "a catch 22" situation.  Given its multipurpose nature, sometimes italicizing can be confusing, and when we have a list of titles, including the English translation, as well as those in other foreign languages, we have to realize that not italicizing the English to the exclusion of the other languages in the title, just because it's English and doesn't normally need to be emphasized would actually imply emphasis, as opposed to nativeness.  This is why publishers hire editors. For the first example in most contexts I'd've given Musik im Bauch ("Music in the Belly"). μηδείς (talk) 05:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)


 * There's a common convention in editing and typesetting that when a passage, which would normally be in roman with a section of italics for distinction or emphasis, is itself rendered overall into italic for whatever reason, the italic section is then rendered into roman in order to retain its distinctiveness.
 * In this instance I would take the "normal" form of this title to be the German one, which would make it
 * Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly). Since we are translating this into English and conventionally use italics for foreign text, this means the English has to change from italic to roman: i.e.
 * Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly).
 * However, if the House style was to render all titles in italic, this would require a second reversal, giving
 * Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly) once more. Such judgements always have to be taken in the context of the House style of the publication (here Wikipedia), because different and incompatible House styles are all correct within themselves, but should not be mixed as this leads to inconsistency and confusion (conscious or unconscious) on the part of the readers.
 * Many larger publishers issue House style guides for internal use, while smaller ones often decide to follow those of the Oxford University Press (which are more extensive than most) because OUP publishes and sells them, as well as other authoritative Writing, Editing and Grammar guides which are of course all conveniently compatible. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.26.60 (talk) 16:36, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:23, 23 July 2016 (UTC)