Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 July 28

= July 28 =

Hath or have?
There was a discussion recently Special:Diff/724452502 about whether
 * Thirty days hath September, April, June and November or
 * Thirty days have September, April, June and November

is the grammatically correct version. I came across these paragraphs in the first prayer book of Edward VI (1549):

To every month, as concerning this purpose, shall be appointed just xxx days.

And because January and March hath one day above the said number, and February, which is placed between them both, hath only xxvii days, February shall borrow of either of the months of January and March one day, and so the Psalter which shall be read in February, must be begun the last day of January and ended the first day of March.

And whereas May, July, August, October and December hath xxxi days apiece, it is ordered that the same Psalms shall be read the last day of the said month[s], which were read the day before: so that the Psalter may be begun again the first day of the next months ensuing.

The square brackets indicate variant versions (you would be lucky to come across two editions printed exactly the same) and note the use of "either" where we would use "both" (the modern meaning apparently dates from the thirteenth century) and "hath" where we would use "have". Was the use of singulars instead of plurals a feature of Old English? 81.134.89.140 (talk) 00:48, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Essay on beggars — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.253.254.87 (talk) 01:27, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I learnt it with ″hath″. There's no problem about plurals—the sentence is inverted. ″September″ is the subject.Djbcjk (talk) 05:32, 28 July 2016 (UTC)djbcjk
 * Then what are "April, June, and November"? --Trovatore (talk) 07:45, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * They are separated from the main clause by a verb phrase that has been elided. "September hath thirty days. And so do April, June, and November." You may not like it, but that's poetry for you. As for the plural form, it would be more accurate to state that 120 days HAVE September, April, June, and November. 137.205.183.31 (talk) 10:21, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

At the time the verse was written, "hath" was a common verb. And, oddly enough, September has not always had thirty days in America. In the British Americas, the calendar change had a September with only 19 days - and in French Canada, October 1710 on had extra days added (31 and 32 day months!), of all things, only to lose them in September 1752. February was the last February 29 not to occur on a leap year, in fact (though only in French Canada). And we shall not forget the decimal calendar of the French Revolution. Collect (talk) 11:52, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * "Archaic third person singular present indicative." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:27, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * See February 30 in relation to Sweden. The most ill-conceived and mis-managed process in world history, imo.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:58, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I learnt it as "30 days has September. The article, which has several versions, is at Thirty days hath September. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 16:59, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Meaning of "tinny" (applied to sounds)
In my discussions with acquaintances about jingles played by ice cream trucks, I sometimes hear the word "tinny" and expressions of dislike for the music played. In my efforts to understand more precisely what is disliked, I have searched in various online dictionaries for definitions of "tinny".


 * http://www.onelook.com/?w=tinny: "a tinny sound is high and unpleasant"


 * 1) http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/tinny: "Having a displeasingly thin, metallic sound"
 * 2) https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=tinny: "Having a thin metallic sound"
 * 3) http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/tinny: "(of a sound) high, thin, and metallic"
 * 4) https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/tinny: "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
 * 5) http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/tinny: "a tinny sound is high and unpleasant"
 * 6) http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tinny: "having a high and unpleasant sound"; "thin in tone"
 * 7) http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tinny?a=british: "Tinny sound is of low quality or like metal being hit"
 * 8) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tinny: "Pertaining to a thin, unpleasant sound recalling that of tin being rapped"
 * 9) http://www.yourdictionary.com/tinny: "An example of a tinny sound is the high pitched sound of an out of tune string instrument." [sic]
 * 10) http://www.wordsmyth.net/?ent=tinny: "having a metallic taste or sound"
 * 11) http://dictionary.infoplease.com/tinny: "lacking in timbre or resonance; sounding thin or twangy"
 * 12) http://www.dictionary.com/browse/tinny: "lacking in timbre or resonance; sounding thin or twangy"
 * 13) http://www.ultralingua.com/onlinedictionary/dictionary: ––––
 * 14) http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tinny: "Tinny sound is of low quality or like metal being hit"
 * 15) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinny: ––––
 * 16) http://www.onelook.com/?other=web1913&w=Tinny: "Pertaining to, abounding with, or resembling, tin"
 * 17) http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resource=Webster%27s&word=tinny&use1913=on: [nonfunctional link]
 * 18) http://www.rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=tinny: "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
 * 19) http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Keyword=Tinny&goquery=Find+it%21&Language=ENG: "Pertaining to a thin, unpleasant sound recalling that of tin being rapped"
 * 20) https://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/tinny: "Abounding with tin"
 * 21) http://www.freedictionary.org/?Query=tinny: "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
 * 22) http://www.mnemonicdictionary.com/word/tinny: "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
 * 23) http://poets.notredame.ac.jp/cgi-bin/wn?cmd=wn&word=tinny: [nonfunctional link]
 * 24) http://lookwayup.com/lwu.exe/lwu/d?s=f&w=tinny#a/1465825: "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
 * 25) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tinny: "Having a thin metallic sound"; "(of a sound) high, thin, and metallic"; "lacking in timbre or resonance"; "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
 * 26) http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-tin3.htm: [a discussion of Australian and New Zealand usage, but not involving sounds]


 * Here is "tinny sound,tinny voice,tinny music,tinny piano" on Google Ngram Viewer.

I find the expression "lacking in resonance" to be strange, because all sounds by their nature must involve some resonance. If it means "having very little resonance", then what can be said about sounds that are very low in pitch and having very little resonance? Also, what can be said about the recent prevalence of clanging (or clanking) low-pitch percussive sounds (obtrusively) accompanying speech or singing? —Wavelength (talk) 18:41, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * "Lacking" might in this context be a synonym for "deficient": i.e. with less than desireable, not "none". A sound that is very low in pitch and has very little resonance would best be described as a "thud" (think of rock band bass drums, which are often deadened with an internal pillow or similar). I haven't noticed the recent "clanging" you describe, except perhaps in the theme tune of Futurama, which is not particularly recent but which features tubular bells that to my ear sound a little muted – could this be an influence? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.26.60 (talk) 22:50, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Tinny is the opposite of woody. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:24, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I associate the word "tinny" with very early phonographs and radios, which did a very poor job of reproducing bass sounds, and a mediocre but somewhat better job of reproducing higher pitched sounds. There are museums where you can hear these century old devices play, and after you listen for a while, the word "tinny" and the definitions above seems quite appropriate. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  02:45, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You don't have to go to a museum. Here's a Billy Murray number that was a big hit in its day, according to Groucho Marx: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:14, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * For people who want to enjoy relatively high-pitched sounds without having to hear bass sounds (whether the sounds heard are in speech, or in vocal music, or in instrumental music; and whether the sounds are heard in a live performance, or in a live broadcast, or in a recording), do you consider the sounds heard to be "tinny" because of the absence of bass sounds?
 * —Wavelength (talk) 03:29, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Which of the following recordings do you perceive to have "tinny" sounds? Do you perceive them as being "tinny" because of their relatively high pitch, or do you do so because of another factor?
 * Here is Adriana Caselotti singing "Someday My Prince Will Come" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIg0iBhdrfU (1:54).
 * Here is Enrico Caruso singing "O sole mio" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1QJwHWvgP8 (3:20).
 * Here is Cecilia Bartoli singing "Vaga luna, che inargenti" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwA7PVc3sBE (4:04).
 * Here is Tiny Tim (musician) singing "Tiptoe Through the Tulips" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcSlcNfThUA (1:12).
 * Here is Taylor Ware singing and yodeling at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT0L-n-dKNI (1:55).
 * Here is a castrato singer, Farinelli, singing at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73MeLZWXz8Q (3:05).
 * Here is Shirley Temple singing "Animal Crackers in My Soup" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNwFXLcrsbc (4:46).
 * Here is the von Trapp family singing "The Lonely Goatherd" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaD9Ozdthg8 (3:01).
 * Here is the Vienna Boys' Choir singing "Tritsch-Tratsch-Polka" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ii6vQNEoCY (3:30).
 * Here is a nightingale singing at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INzqozVbYL8 (4:02).
 * —Wavelength (talk) 06:01, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * "Tinny" is descriptive not of pitch but of timbre. A sound that is full and rich in tone, no matter how high-pitched, would not be described as "tinny". Imagine hearing a piece of music played on an expensive hi-fi system. Then imagine hearing the same piece of music played on a pair of small cheap computer speakers. The cheap speakers would make it sound tinnier than the expensive hi-fi. Then imagine hearing it through someone else's headphones - that's even tinnier. You're losing the full richness of frequencies that make up the sound, and only hearing the higher frequencies. That's what people mean by "tinny". --Nicknack009 (talk) 06:42, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * If sounds with a wide range of frequencies are perceived to be "full" and "rich", then I suppose that sounds without bass frequencies can be compared to decaffeinated coffee, de-alcoholized beer, sugar-free chewing gum, unsalted popcorn, filleted fish, boneless chicken, lactose-free milk, and gluten-free food.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 19:15, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I think a pure note will never be "tinny", no matter how high. I'm going to speculate that tinny notes are the ones with a lot of power in their higher overtones.  That's why it sounds tinny when you overdrive a microphone; you cut off the top and bottom of the sine wave, and that results in a Fourier expansion with lots of needed terms.
 * But it's probably not that simple. For example, barbershop singing relies on constructive interference of the overtones to produce the characteristic "ring", and that's considered a good thing. --Trovatore (talk) 19:46, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I assume the expression derives from the tin can telephone, perhaps the ultimate tinny experience, beloved of my younger days.--Shantavira|feed me 07:20, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * That's what I'd always imagined, too. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:04, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Edison's first recording was done in 1877 on tin foil, produced a tinny sound, and, oddly enough, Etymology Online gives the earliest use of "tinny" in regard to a sound from...1877. μηδείς (talk) 19:36, 31 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I think this - Phonograph cylinder - is the link you were trying to mention . The one you typed sure makes sense as well so it might be worth turning it into a redirect. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 22:17, 31 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks, and I will take your advice. μηδείς (talk) 23:54, 31 July 2016 (UTC)