Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 June 11

= June 11 =

monkey wrench
The Urban Dictionary's top definition for monkey wrench reads "fool, gullible person". Can anyone here corroborate this usage? I have never come across this meaning, but then I'm not a native speaker; all conventional dictionaries within my reach, as well as Wiktionary, only know the figurative sense "sabotage/disruption" (throw a monkey wrench into the machinery), which only comes in second over at the Urban Dictionary. --Edith Wahr (talk) 08:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Somebody's thrown a monkey wrench into the Urban Dictionary. That definition is absurd. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:34, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I thought/think so, too. But then again until I looked it up just now I didn't know that the verb to monkeywrench can mean both/either 1. "to repair" (Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English) and 2. "to disrupt/obstruct/damage/sabotage/destroy" (OED), that is, the very opposite of "to repair". Tricky. --Edith Wahr (talk) 09:13, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The "sabotage" meaning is apparently derived from the 1975 novel The Monkey Wrench Gang, incidentally. Tevildo (talk) 09:47, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * It's what our article says. The citation is to Screw Unto Others by George Hayduke.  If the OED has an earlier citation for the usage, our article needs to be corrected. Tevildo (talk) 15:01, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * And the OED agrees, explicitly citing Abbey's novel for the "sabotage" meaning. The earlier (1904) OED citation is for the "repair" meaning. Tevildo (talk) 15:13, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * It's a bit (for which read huge, vast) of a stretch to call Tevildo's reference to the OED a 'misrepresentation'. Since when did the Additional Series (aka new words we thunk up since we last revised the main work) not form part of the OED? That the online OED is not in synch with the dead-tree OED is neither here nor there. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:47, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I don't have a subscription. What does the official entry say?  If it can't be quoted verbatim, how does it differ from the "Additions" text? Tevildo (talk) 15:50, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * And, just to clarify, my reference is purely for the verb "to monkeywrench" meaning "to sabotage", which (as I interpreted it) is what the OP's original question was about, not about the generic term "monkey wrench". Tevildo (talk) 15:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The online OED gives "1983 [implied in: Los Angeles Times 20 May b11/1  Such acts are now called ‘eco-tage’ or ‘monkey-wrenching’. ‘We don't plan any monkey-wrenching here today,’ said David Foreman, one of the organizers of the demonstration." as its earliest citation of the use of the word as sabotage and is silent on Abbey's work. Duncan seems a little testy. I'm not sure I understand why. Hope you feel better soon. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:05, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * You won't be pleased to read on the online OED the sentence "In sense 2b apparently with allusion to the title of E. Abbey's 1975 novel The Monkey Wrench Gang" where sense 2b is sabotage. Or perhaps you will. I lose track. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:11, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think they put allusions, apparent or confirmed, in the citation section. Do you still have doubts that the OED is tracing a connection back to the book? We could call in the writer of the 1983 LA Times article and tourture him or her until he/she confirms whether it was an actual allusion, if that would cheer you up. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:30, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

I've amended my original statement above. I'm sorry if I've offended DuncanHill, this was not my intention. The citations for the derivation from Abbey's novel are Hayduke's book and the OED Additions cite, which should be enough for Wikipedia. Tevildo (talk) 16:46, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * So now it looks like I didn't read the post I was responding to. Blanking my responses above because of that. DuncanHill (talk) 16:49, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * For antipodeans and other latecomers to the party, it's somewhat unsettling to read responses that name a previous poster who strangely appears never to have taken a prior part in the conversation. Better to strike posts that have been responded to, rather than blank them. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:55, 11 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The terms "monkey wrench" and "spanner" have been around for a century or two. The terms "a spanner in the works" or "a monkey wrench in the works" are much older than 1975. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:05, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Curious that our article doesn't mention that a monkey wrench is almost universally (in the south of England anyway) called a Stilson wrench. Who Mr Stilson was, I have no idea. Alansplodge (talk) 11:53, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Strike that: I've just found pipe wrench which is slightly different apparently, and was invented by Daniel Chapman Stillson. Alansplodge (talk) 11:56, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * And I live in the south of England and don't think I've ever heard talk of Stilson wrenches. DuncanHill (talk) 11:59, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Try asking your plumber - I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty certain that it's widely used amongst tradesmen here - see this image search which nearly all relate to the UK and Australia. The spelling seems to be a bit variable with regard to the number of "L"s. Alansplodge (talk) 17:17, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Sometimes the names of tools fade out. The Allen wrench seems to be more often called a "hex key" nowadays. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:07, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Always called Allen keys round here. DuncanHill (talk) 14:36, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I was a little surprised (though I shouldn't have been) that Wikipedia treats hex key like the common name, and that Allen wrench (which is what it actually is) redirects to hex key. Kind of the opposite of the Edelweiss situation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:04, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree with Duncan, "Allen key" predominates here. Alansplodge (talk) 17:27, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Since my dad worked for one of Allen's competitors, I learned quite early to never use anything but "hex key". Later in life, I worked for a manufacturer of copy machines and similarly learned never to use "Xerox" as a generic term. -- LarryMac | Talk  16:40, 15 June 2016 (UTC)


 * In the NE US a monkey wrench is a largish (although size is not so important) wrench with a span adjustable by a screw. For unimaginable reasons, the Brits seem to call this a spanner.  What matters to Americans is that you can actually kill someone with a monkey wrench, given its mass. μηδείς (talk) 01:29, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
 * In the UK, and apparently anywhere else in the non-US Anglosphere, a spanner is any sort of wrench, one with a screw adjustment is an adjustable spanner, although that generally means one intended for a hexagonal nut of whatever size. A large adjustable spanner with opposing jaws is, as discussed above, a stillson or pipe wrench. Alansplodge (talk) 17:45, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Correct, in that 'spanner' is the term even for a non-adjustable wrench. Your last sentence is a little ambiguous. The Stillson wrench, a.k.a pipe wrench, is specifically for rotating a pipe or tube or rod. It is not the name that should be applied to any "large adjustable spanner with opposing jaws". Akld guy (talk) 19:18, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Onomatopoeia for the tree-falling sound
In English, is there an established, regularly-used onomatopoeic word for the sound of a tree falling down? --BorgQueen (talk) 20:18, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * "plunk"? or "thud" maybe? or "thump".--William Thweatt TalkContribs 20:28, 11 June 2016 (UTC)


 * A falling tree makes a lot of sounds. First there's creaking, then a bunch of snapping and cracking as the branches break, then usually a big thud when it hits the ground.  I don't think there's any well established word that represents the whole process.  There are words for the individual sounds, but none that I am aware of that would definitely communicate that a tree is falling rather than any of a variety of other events.  There is of course the cliche that lumberjacks yell "timber!" just before they fell a tree.  CodeTalker (talk) 21:47, 11 June 2016 (UTC)


 * It might sound obvious, but "crash" gets plenty of Google hits in association with "falling tree", and seems to be widely used in literature. Examples: an English translation of Anna Karenina ("he heard the crash of the great tree falling upon the others") Seeing in the Dark: The Poetry of Phyllis Webb ("Crash — in the woods at night. Only a dead tree falling.") and The Wonderful Wizard of Oz by L. Frank Baum ("the big tree tipped and fell with a crash across the ditch").
 * Finally and perhaps more authoritatively: An American Dictionary of the English Language: First Edition by Noah Webster ("CRASH, n. The loud mingled sound of many things falling and breaking at once; as, the sound of a large tree falling and its branches breaking"). Alansplodge (talk) 15:51, 12 June 2016 (UTC)


 * "The tree the tempest with a crash of wood
 * Throws down in front of us is not to bar
 * Our passage to our journey's end for good,
 * But just to ask us who we think we are" (From On a Tree Fallen Across the Road by Robert Frost.) Alansplodge (talk) 17:15, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * "Supposing a tree were to fall, Pooh," said Piglet, "Just as we were underneath it." "Supposing it didn't," said Pooh after some careful thought. Piglet was comforted by this. - A.A.Milne. KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 18:22, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Brilliant! I may use that the next time I have to write a risk assessment. Alansplodge (talk) 19:37, 12 June 2016 (UTC)


 * "Crash" is good, for any event with combinations of different loud sounds. Vehicles of various kinds qualify. Also, "The storm exploded with a might crash...". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:22, 12 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, "crash", unless the trunk is limbless, in which case it would be a mighty thump. μηδείς (talk) 01:25, 14 June 2016 (UTC)