Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 June 12

= June 12 =

accented characters
Lately, I have noticed that whenever there is an character with an accent mark over it there is a space before and after that character, even if the character is in the middle or at the end of the word. Examples: Honor è de Balzac, P è re Lachaise Cemetery, La Com è die humaine. I have even noticed this in English where apostrophes are used, as on the previous page: "we' ll help you" Why???

75.18.184.182 (talk) 17:46, 12 June 2016 (UTC)


 * As for the apostrophe left standing, that's a mistake, just like your three question marks. You only need one to make it a question. KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 18:58, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I concur it's a mistake, or maybe some kind of technical glitch. Multiple question marks and/or exclamation marks are sometimes used to increase the emphasis. In this particular case, the three question marks do not seem necessary. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:19, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * It is most definitely not a mistake "just like your three question marks"; the latter is either a very different kind of mistake, or else no mistake at all. The extra question marks in "Why???" indicate a greater urgency or perplexity on the part of the questioner than a mere "Why?" would. Such repetition is restricted to informal registers, and deprecated by some; but this is  a matter of usage. On the other hand, "Com è die" is not an error of usage or style, and most likely not even an error of orthography, but rather some kind of technical glitch in 75.18.184.182's text renderer. KägeTorä would do well to avoid confusing those who ask an honest question and may not be fluent in English with snide irrelevancies. jnestorius(talk) 17:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Are you seeing this a lot in mobile communications? Some autocomplete/autocorrect programs will automatically put a space after you select a word (generally from a list of options displayed above the keyboard as you type), so, for example, changing "Well help you" to "We'll help you" results in the autocomplete picking up "We'" as a word when you insert the apostrophe, and automatically adding the space. MChesterMC (talk) 08:33, 13 June 2016 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "whenever"? In everything you read, in any medium? —Tamfang (talk) 08:35, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Etymology of Latin libellula
The Latin word libellula (meaning "dragonfly") is a diminutive of liber (meaning "book"), and I had assumed that this was in reference to the shape of the body being like that of a scroll. However, when I performed some WWW searches for the etymology of the word, I found some web pages where the derivation was attributed to the shape of the wings being like that of the pages of an open (codex) book. I have two questions. —Wavelength (talk) 19:55, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) What was the dragonfly called by ancient Romans who used scrolls?
 * 2) When was the Latin word libellula first used with the meaning of "dragonfly"?
 * Libellula as the generic name for some dragonflies was coined by Linnaeus in the 18th century. There does not appear to be a classical latin word for a dragonfly: I suspect that they had less interest in distinguishing one type of insect from another. Wymspen (talk) 20:32, 12 June 2016 (UTC)


 * According to my paper OED (2nd ed.) libellula as the name of the dragonfly genus was coined by Carl Linnaeus as a variation of the earlier scientific name libella, which was coined by "Moufet" in the 17th century ("perh[aps] an application of L libella ... with reference to the horizontal extension of the wings" says the OED). So it appears the fairly modern coinage of these words was, in fact, done with codices rather than scrolls in mind. I don't offhand know what, if anything, the Romans called dragonflies, and a search for Eng. "dragonfly" or "dragon-fly" in the online version of Lewis & Short's Latin Dictionary comes up empty. Deor (talk) 20:38, 12 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Libellula is also the modern Italian name for dragonfly. According to some online sources another possibility, besides Latin libellus (little book), is Latin libella, diminutive form of libra (scales). --151.41.150.169 (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Since dragonflies were portrayed in Ancient Egyptian art of the Middle Kingdom (~2000–1700BCE), and are quite prominent creatures, it seems inconceivable that the Ancient Romans (whose basic economy was largely rural) did not notice or name them, but perhaps we happen not to have any preserved texts that mention them, or else the name used has not yet been recognised for what it is by any translators. (An opening for a thesis there?) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 18:23, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

The list of translations at dragonfly includes many words which appear to be derivatives of the Latin word libellula, and one of those words is the Modern Greek word λιβελλούλη. Greek Wikipedia Greek Wiktionary has an entry at el:wikt:λιβελούλα, and Greek Wikipedia has an article at el:λιβελούλη, each using a spelling different from the other and different from the one in English Wiktionary. I have two additional questions. —Wavelength (talk) 16:03, 14 June 2016 (UTC) and 23:26, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) What was the dragonfly called by ancient Greeks who used scrolls?
 * 2) When was any (Ancient or Modern) Greek word similar to the Latin word libellula first used with the meaning of "dragonfly"?

I can find two medieval illustrations of a dragonfly (one in the 13th-century sketchbook of Villard de Honnecourt, and another in the 14th century Belleville Breviary. They're not labelled and the dragonflies are just random and have nothing to do with the text...so basically this doesn't help, except that medieval people knew what they were and could conceivably have a medieval Latin or French name for them...which may come from an ancient Latin word? I don't know, I'm trying :) Adam Bishop (talk) 00:04, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I was also thinking that the dragonfly is also called a damselfly, and in French another name is "demoiselle", which comes from Latin "domicella" (ultimately "dominicella"). That seems like it would be a dead end though. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:16, 15 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I found "How to tell the difference between a dragonfly and a damselfly".
 * —Wavelength (talk) 23:49, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

To approach it from another direction, Larousse gives this etymology for the French libellule : 'modern scientific Latin libellula, from classical Latin libella, meaning "level", because of the horizontal flight of the insect.' 184.147.121.62 (talk) 01:08, 16 June 2016 (UTC)


 * according to de:Libellen the meaning and origin of Linne's Libella was a mystery to etymologists until his likely source was discovered in the 1950s: L’histoire entière des poissons by Guillaume Rondelet (1558). Apparently it was Rondelet's very own idea to call the dragonfly libella because its shape resembles that of a carpenter's level. --Edith Wahr (talk) 11:38, 16 June 2016 (UTC)


 * No success as yet, but I can report negatively that (a) Pliny the Elder apparently makes no mention of them in his Naturalis Historia, although he describes various other insects, and (b) none of the (originally Greek) Aesop's Fables appear to involve dragonflies. I find this question intriguing: I might try asking at Ask a Biologist later. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 16:55, 16 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Aristotle mentions cicadas and dragonfly-like insects in History of Animals, but doesn't seem to have a name for dragonflies specifically. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:48, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

The list of translations at dragonfly includes the red-linked Hebrew entry שפירית, and Hebrew Wikipedia has an article at he:שפיריות (with a different spelling). Although the Bible mentions several types of insect (Ex. 16:8, 24; 10:4; Lev. 11:22; Judg. 14:8; Eccl. 10:1; 1 Sam. 24:14; Prov. 6:6; Matt. 6:19; 23:24; Mark 1:6), there is evidently no mention of dragonflies. —Wavelength (talk) 00:30, 17 June 2016 (UTC) and 00:54, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

These search results for "libellula" at Vicifons (the Latin version of Wikisource) seem to be unhelpful. Also, there is no Latin corpus at http://corpus.byu.edu. —Wavelength (talk) 02:52, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

There is a discussion about mayflies at https://trustterminix.com/ask-the-entomologist-question-about-mayflies/, and the website http://dragonflywebsite.com is devoted specifically to dragonflies, but neither of those appears to be helpful in regards to the etymology of the Latin noun libellula. I thank all respondents for all their answers. It seems to me that my original premise (which was based on some sources) was mistaken, and that the noun libellula (lībellula) was actually formed as a diminutive of the noun lībella, itself a diminutive of the noun lībra (as attested by other sources). In that case, it follows the pattern of Latin diminutive nouns being of the same gender as the root nouns from which they have been derived. —Wavelength (talk) 03:19, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Richard Garriott
In Richard Garriott, para 2 says that he is the second person to be a "second-generation space traveler". What is a "second-generation space traveler"? -- SGBailey (talk) 22:14, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Neologism for someone whose father or mother was also in space. Somewhat cronky and possibly lacking cromulence--Tagishsimon (talk) 22:18, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Contracromulent? (Damn, I can't claim primacy of coinage; it has 1 ghit, from 2005. But today is surely its debut in the better class of websites. I claim independent discovery.) --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  05:24, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Countercromulent. No Ghits for that, so I claim the word as my own coinage. Good try, Jack, but like Scott of the Antarctic, someone got there first, only this time it wasn't a Scandiwegian. KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 09:55, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Funny how the guy who lost the race and died on the return journey is remembered; the winner, who survived - not so much. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
 * When queried about this bit of irony, Roald Amundsen said, "I can live with it." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:01, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I've changed the sentence to "With his trip, he became the second person, and first American, who had a parent that was also a space traveler." -- SGBailey (talk) 22:30, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Well now, that's worse. The first two persons to have a parent that was also a space traveler were Yelena and Galina Gagarin. jnestorius(talk) 16:50, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * How about:
 * "With his trip, he became the second person space traveler, and first American space traveler, who had to have a parent that who was also a space traveler."
 * It seems to have unavoidable clunkiness, which may well be why someone opted for "second-generation space traveler". I'd have thought that expression was inherently comprehensible, but the very existence of this question tells me otherwise. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:15, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Why is being the first American to leave the planet and also have a parent who left the planet, however that's phrased, interesting? It sounds like it was invented so that Richard Garriott could be first at it. I think we should just delete it. See also xkcd.com/1122. -- BenRG (talk) 22:10, 17 June 2016 (UTC)