Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 May 27

= May 27 =

Neutral expressions for effeminate men in English?
Is my understanding correct that English expressions in common use for individuals perceived as male but effeminate are invariably strongly derogatory (or at least generally used that way), while some corresponding expressions in German such as Softie, Weichei or Warmduscher tend to be used in an only mildly derogatory manner or even have a jocular or affectionate tone to them, at least significantly more often?

(In fact, there arose a fad after the term Warmduscher was coined or popularised by comedian Harald Schmidt in Germany, which consisted of parodies of stereotypical masculinity by using behaviours considered normal or at least widely acknowledged as sensible and forming analogous terms for Weicheier, while using their opposite behaviours to form analogous terms for Harteier, to caricaturise overly "manly men" as reckless and stupid. I find this somewhat reminiscent of the "Chuck Norris facts" meme, in its playing with exaggerated stereotypes of masculinity, but significantly more subversive.)

The reason I'm asking is that when I tried to translate Softie, suggested English counterparts in dictionaries struck me as much too harsh and insulting; hence I wonder if a commonly understood more neutral term exists. However, my Sprachgefühl might mislead me in either or both languages. But especially in the US, effeminacy seems to be much more strongly stigmatised than in Germany, generally speaking, and I suspect that most German men, especially educated ones, identify neither as Softie nor its counterpart Macho but view themselves somewhere in between both these (perceived) extreme stereotypes. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:06, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm lost on the shades of connotation for the German words, but the term "Metrosexual" can be used neutrally in AmEng, though it also can be used as a derogatory term. It's not 100% the same as effeminate, but has some overlap. Oh, I see from Softie that there is a German article Metrosexualität. (P.S. Most words for a "type" of person can be used positively, negatively, and neutrally. Even generally positive words like macho or jock could be insulting in the right context.) SemanticMantis (talk) 15:18, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Sensitive New Age Guy also has been used positively, though also to mock.184.147.127.106 (talk) 15:20, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * We have an article on new age, and you also reminded me of the phrase "sensitive 90s guy" - but I fear that is far too culturally contextual to be generally useful. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:23, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * "Softie" has no connotations of effeminacy, to me. In fact, it's usually applied to very masculine men, as a counterpoint to their macho-ness.  It's about gentleness, sensitivity, caring and empathy, not effeminacy.  "Arnie's the quintessential tough guy, but get to know him and you find he's a real softie".  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:10, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jack's interpretation of "softie" in English. It means a possibly threatening looking person who is actually very pleasant and/or affectionate despite their looks.  "The biker who runs that dive is actually a real softie once 2you get to know him."


 * Metrosexual might be used neutrally, but I can't possibly imagine an ad that says, "Introducing the man-purse by Voncé, the newest must-have accessory for the well-dressed metrosexual" unless it were a parody TV ad from Saturday Night Live. See also, Pajama Boy.


 * Effeminacy in the US is quite rare, but see British import, provocateur and Breitbart tech editor, Milo Yiannopoulos, here, at about 2 minutes. μηδείς (talk) 19:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * You are saying effeminate men in the US are "quite rare"? That would be quite surprising. More likely they exist as frequently as elsewhere, but are strongly stigmatised so usually try to conceal their effeminacy, especially straight men. Queer men probably have it easier, at least whenever they are moving outside mainstream culture and among the like-minded, but even gay culture has an uncomfortable relationship with femininity, as far as I'm aware.


 * Yiannopoulos is doubtless an interesting character. The Hamlet quote the lady doth protest too much, methinks comes to mind.


 * "Metrosexuality", by the way, is something completely different from effeminacy. It's a man who takes care for his looks, which in some cultures (for example, South Asia) is quite normative, and especially for the upper class. A "metrosexual" man can be very athletic (likely is) and very "macho" or conventionally "masculine" in personality. I'm not aware of "metrosexual" men ridiculised as "wimps" or "sissies" etc., only for vanity.


 * There's also the problem that effeminacy can mean different things. A man can be mild-mannered without presenting in an outright femme manner, and vice versa. A German Softie (an English softie is clearly a completely different kettle of fish, but I didn't realise that) is simply mild-mannered and unathletic, I'd say. There's some overlap with nerds and geeks, I figure.


 * "Nice guys" aren't Softies, or at least Softies aren't generally "nice guys", at least not in the "Nice Guy syndrome" manner. Being sensitive and shy doesn't mean you have to be a jerk to women. Nor does it mean you can never get a girlfriend – in my experience, you just need to look out for the type of lady with a nerdy, intellectual bent herself, because she is more likely to take the initiative if you don't. "Nice guys" seem to frequently have unrealistic expectations, however, and therefore overlook or dismiss women who aren't conventionally "hot" enough. I blame media to some extent, though, as they can make guys feel that it's not OK, or a personal failing, to have a girlfriend not meeting arbitrary standards of beauty. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:21, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * , even if one is a gay man, if he does not overtly act effeminately, he is not effeminate. That is, effeminacy is all about the outward behavior, just like butchness is about the outward behavior.
 * This is not to say that there aren't people who act effeminately in private and among friends, or who put it on for fun, or to be transgressive. But yes, men who are constantly effeminate are quite rare, and having spent a good deal of time in the West Village and as a former employee of Christopher Street Magazine I can speak with some experience.  Having socialized with most of the men and women I worked with there, none of them suddenly "let their hair down" when they got home or we went to a bar.
 * There was indeed one young man in the art department with long hair, a feminine demeanor in gestures in speech, and who dressed in a determinedly not masculine way; scrunchies, high-heeled boots, shirts that on a woman would be blouses. All the other gay men there acted like the average heterosexual, although about half would switch to "queenish" mode for humorous effect.  But they had to do this by effort, it was not their normal mode of being.
 * I did have the distinct pleasure of meeting Quentin Crisp once when he was quite old. But to a large extent, his type is very rare in the modern US, and I mean very rare even among openly gay men.  I'll also point out that if you listen to Milo Yiannopoulos's podcasts, his normal state when relaxed is not at all effeminate, but he has great fun and no shame in acting effeminately when it suites him. μηδείς (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I never claimed that all gay men are effeminate, where do you get that from? In fact, most of them are probably not, at least not outwardly in the way you talk about (presenting distinctly femme or even female), and many are anything but (such as bears); I know that very well. However, as I explained, there are different kinds of effeminacy (so we have to be clear on what we are talking about), and lack of "manly" qualities (as in stereotypical nerds) can also be perceived as a form of effeminacy (and this is what most of the slurs mentioned primarily target – for femme- or even female-presenting people perceived as male, there are other slurs). And, as you say, there is effortless, "natural" effeminacy (as a personality trait) and the kind you put on for effect. But then, even women (whether cis or trans) differ in that respect quite radically.
 * Anyway, I find it hard to believe that natural effeminacy is rarer in the US than elsewhere. This is presumably a cultural thing, and an effect of the harsher stigmatisation in the US of any kind of qualities considered stereotypically feminine in people perceived as male. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 05:03, 29 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree we need to be clear to distinguish what we mean, and am not trying to put words in your mouth. The problem I have is with your implication that there is such a thing as inward effeminacy, or that there are different types of effeminacy.  Effeminacy means showing feminine traits in a male.  While cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, and enjoying love stories might all be considered feminine traits, being a chef, a janitor, a stay-at-home dad, or enjoying romance movies (drawing a blank for an example) doesn't make you effeminate if you don't act in stereotypically feminine ways.  Likewise, being in the military has typically been seen as masculine, but: Military Fairies. μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 29 May 2016 (UTC)


 * For an older term, dandy seems relatively neutral. StuRat (talk) 22:07, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The Cowardly Lion in the 1939 film: "I'm afraid there's no denyin' / I'm just a dandy lion..." (complete with limp-wrist gesture). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:11, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * In checking out EO's discussion of "dandy", the term "beau" came up. I'm not so sure it's used that way anymore (or at all, maybe). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:15, 27 May 2016 (UTC)


 * For a modern (fictional) example of dandies, we have the Crane brothers from Frasier, both of whom were heterosexual. StuRat (talk) 22:34, 29 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I think German "Softie" is like English "old softie." For a neutral or affection term for an effeminate man, there is "Miss Thing" (as a term of address). —Stephen (talk) 00:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Calling an effeminate man "Miss Thang" (which is how it is pronounced) is basically only appropriate among drag queens in urban areas. See (for example) Paris is Burning.  I can't see how you would possibly say this is a "neutral" term, and it's only affectionate if she is one of your friends or has said "Oh, honey chile, juss call me Miss Thang." Otherwise it's quite insulting. μηδείς (talk) 04:39, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * "new man" was a 1970s term for a male feminist; a new man might stereotypically engage in stereotypically female pursuits like housework and childcare, and would probably not behave in hypermasculine ways, but "effeminate" is a bit of a stretch. (The new lad name was coined in 1993 by Sean O'Hagan in pomo ironic hattip to the new man). jnestorius(talk) 10:45, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Wikidata links de:Softie to en:Nice guy. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 13:42, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I can't directly help, but I am reminded of Larry Grayson, the Nuneaton comedian, who had a catchphrase "Seems like a nice boy!" which gets used to refer to men whose sexuality is, erm, questionable. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:55, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * "Teddy bear" is sometimes used to describe a gentle, mild-mannered male, though often one that is a bit on the husky side (hence the descriptor). It's not exactly "effeminate" in meaning, but like some of the other terms mentioned above, overlap exists. JordanGero (talk) 14:41, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Being effeminate is not exactly celebrated, at least not in the mainstream, so it's not surprising there wouldn't be a neutral term. Jack Benny used to get called effeminate because of his somewhat "fussy" presentation style. Start at about 1:15 of this clip. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:47, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * When I saw "Softie" I immediately thought of Dennis the Menace from the classic British children's comic, The Beano. Dennis's mates formed a gang called "the Menaces", who were always getting into trouble in a boyish sort of way. Their sworn enemies were the effete (if not downright effeminate) "Softies" led by Walter the Softy, who avoided getting muddy and being involved in naughtiness. They no longer appear in the cartoon, apparently because Dennis's interaction with the Softies was usually just plain schoolboy bullying. Dennis the Menace’s ‘gay-bashing’ banned Alansplodge (talk) 20:59, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * When I used to read The Beano (many, _many_ years ago), the strips invariably ended with Dennis and/or Danny from The Bash Street Kids being subject to corporal punishment, contrary to Article 3. What is their fate these days? Tevildo (talk) 21:40, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * "...the Beano editors' decision in the 1980s that Dennis's dad should no longer slipper his son in the last frame. Dennis had been spanked weekly since his birth on 17 March 1951. And that, despite decades of the Beano suggesting otherwise, wasn't good parenting."   Alansplodge (talk) 22:18, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * As an ex boy scout, I can say that the proper word is definitely 'camp'--178.106.99.31 (talk) 23:32, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That might work. The producer or director of Are You Being Served? referred to John Inman's characterization as "camp". I'm not sure it's altogether neutral, but it's got to be better than, for example, "swishy". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:01, 29 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Maybe neutral was too strongly worded. As I explained, I was wondering if there are any terms in English which are not outright slurs. German Softie is usually mildly derogatory or teasing, but hardly a slur. Sissy, on the other hand, is more than mildly derogatory, and would hardly be laughed off by the "victim", but usually taken as a fairly grave insult or at least rudely mocking. At least that's the difference according to my Sprachgefühl. Feel free to correct me if I'm totally off base there. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 05:13, 29 May 2016 (UTC)


 * An older generation of Britons used the pejorative term "Jessie" for an effeminate man, perhaps explaining why Jesse was not a popular boys' name here until quite recently. Alansplodge (talk) 08:26, 29 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Also "Nancy boy". Nance or Nancy (a variant of Anne) is rarely given even to baby girls nowadays.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:37, 30 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Nancy for females is not as popular as it once was, but I wouldn't say it's rare. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:49, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Compare 32,442 Nancys born in the USA in 1947, to only 340 in 2015. Less than one Nancy a day in the entire country; 1% of the score in the peak year, and falling. That's rare. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  05:15, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Names fall in and out of fashion, and not necessarily due to any social stigma. Look at how popular names like Mary and Betty used to be, compared with what they are now. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:20, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, indeed. These days, how many babies are named Herbert, Arthur, Archibald, Myrtle, Ethel, Valmai, Clarence, Percy, and so on?  Once all very common names.  Not now, though.  Now they're rare.  Just like Nance and Nancy.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:26, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, and how long has it been since the British had a king named Egbert? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:56, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Never, actually. Egbert of Wessex is counted an English king, but only British in the same sense that the kings of Prussia were German monarchs.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:47, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I had debated whether to say "English" or "British". Either way, there aren't all that many Egberts nowadays. The most recent one I can think of is this. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:33, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I find their preferred first name works well. -- Jayron 32 22:32, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That's too easy.


 * Mary may not be so common, but Maria and Maryam are more popular.  Nancy has made a comeback.   For the boys, Arthur is quite popular and Archibald has been replaced by Archie . 80.44.165.100 (talk) 09:20, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


 * How about "Girlie men"? (not necessarily neutral, more jocular) --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:815D:E1A4:3737:B2F2 (talk) 16:28, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Not neutral at all. Strictly ridiculing, in the way "fag" used to be used. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)