Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 September 18

= September 18 =

Modern Hebrew words stressed on the antepenult?
What is the technical word in Hebrew for those words of modern Hebrew that are stressed on the antepenult? (E.g. דיזנגוף "Di-zen-gof", קנדה "Ka-na-da", פוליטיקה "Po-li-ti-ka", etc.). Are there words in modern Hebrew that are stressed further back than that? Basemetal 01:10, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The term for the antepenultimate stress is מלעיל דמלעיל.
 * does quote some examples where the preantepenult is stressed: אמבולנסים  am bulansim, בייביסיטר  bey bisiter. --My another account (talk) 09:17, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I am copying here an answer that an unregistered user left at my talk (because they couldn't leave it here for the reasons you know) as it may be of interest to other users of the RD Basemetal  19:43, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Almost all of them are loan words, and the technical word you are looking for - is מלעיל דמלעיל. In principle, there may be also the property of מלעיל דמלעיל דמלעיל (and so forth), provided that there is a loan word (e.g. a proper noun and the like) having that property - in any foreign language from which Hebrew borrows that word.
 * I've written "almost all of them", rather than "all of them", because the Bible contains two rare words which may linguistically be regarded as מלעיל דמלעיל words, provided that a חטף (e.g. a short /ă/ as opposed to the longer one /a/ - or a short /ĕ/ as opposed to the longer one /e/ - and the like), should be regarded as a "full" vowel (it's not though - as far as Hebrew is concerned). The two words are: 1) הָאֹהֱלָה (being the third Hebrew word in Genesis 18 6) - pronounced /ha'ohĕla/ - and meaning the Allative case of "the tent", and: 2) צֹעֲרָה (being the last Hebrew word in Genesis 19, 23) - pronounced /'Ṣoʕăra/ in Biblical Hebrew ( /'Tsoʕăra/ in Formal Modern Hebrew) - and meaning the Allative case of (the place) "Zoar". 141.226.217.81 (talk) 06:42, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Doesn't the modern pronunciation of משהו ("something") or מישהו ("someone") in Modern Hebew stress the antepenult? "Ma-she-hu"? "Mi-she-hu"? Basemetal  08:04, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely correct. I didn't pay attention to those words, because I was mainly thinking about Biblical Hebrew (even though you asked about Modern Hebrew).
 * Thanks to those excellent examples you've provided, I can now think also about מלעיל דמלעיל דמלעיל, being: משהויים, pronounced /'maʃehuyim/, and meaning the plural of "something". You can find this word in the Babylonian Talmud (Eruvin 87a). 141.226.217.81 (talk) 08:09, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Plural of "something"? Like "some things"? Is the surrounding context Aramaic? So a Hebrew word (or madeup word) used inside an Aramaic sentence? Basemetal  08:31, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * This word could have meant "somethings", if English Grammar had allowed to use such a construction.
 * The surrounding context is a Hebrew one, e.g. in the Hebrew sentence in Eruvin 87a, even though the word ibid. is משהויין, pronounced /'maʃehuyin/, which ends with an originally Aramaic suffix - sometimes used also in rare Hebrew cases e.g. נישואין and גירושין (and משהויין) and the like.
 * in Modern Hebrew, the word משהויים (as well as משהויין) is not in a common use. It was used many centuries ago though. Nowadays, it's only used in Talmudic contexts (e.g. when studying Eruvin 87a), and is also used in Jewish religious Law (e.g. in Shulchan Aruch). 141.226.217.81 (talk) 08:58, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * As for babysitter: That's true, this word being one of the loan words I was referring to - in the beginning (even though it's not a proper noun). As for אמבולנסים: The stress is very seldom on the first syllable. This word is usually pronounced as a regular מלעיל, the stress being on the " לַנְ "
 * 141.226.217.81 (talk) 09:27, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that in אמבולנס the stress is מלרע or are you saying that the stress shifts from singular to plural? Basemetal  09:36, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Shifts, because the singular is pronounced as a מלעיל דמלעיל. Anyways, if I hear anybody pronounce the plural as a מלעיל דמלעיל דמלעיל (the stress being on the first syllable), then I will still regard them as native Hebrew speakers, although that form is much less common than the מלעיל form. 141.226.217.81 (talk) 09:48, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thnx. But why didn't answer at the RD? Basemetal  14:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Because the RD is protected right now. 141.226.217.81 15:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.226.218.113 (talk)
 * It's funny that I can find many usages of מישהם as a plural of מישהו ("somebodies"), but indeed, no משהם for "somethings", only משהוים. (In fact, משהואים with an א' is even more frequent.) --My another account (talk) 08:49, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I note, for the Biblical examples mentioned above, that in both cases they are allatives of a מילה סגולית where the last vowel was replaced by the corresponding חטף whether חטף סגול for סגול in the first case or חטף פתח for פתח in the second case. when in other משקלים there would have been a שווא there. I wonder if these are the only examples of allatives for מילים סגוליות in the Bible. Btw what is the Hebrew word for "allative"? (Specifically the Hebrew case of the Biblical examples mentioned and other phrases such as השמיימה and so on, not the Hebrew equivalent of the general linguistic term) Basemetal  10:10, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
 * ה"א המגמה --My another account (talk) 10:37, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
 * תודה Basemetal  10:56, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Water lanes
Merriam-Webster defines water lane as "a lane with a stream flowing alongside". Oxford defines water lane as "A lane or path which closely follows a stream or small watercourse" (Originally and chiefly Guernsey apparently). In this painting by George Turner "A Derbyshire Water Lane" what I see is a path crossing a stream. I'm confused. What are the various meanings of water lane and do they differ in different parts of the UK? (Not sure if Guernsey is part of the UK, but ok). Basemetal 01:39, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, last question first: Guernsey is not part of the UK, nor of England, but is generally considered as part of the British Isles. The official status is a Crown Dependency, or internationally a "territory for which the United Kingdom is responsible". Guernsey and the neighbouring island of Jersey were historically part of the Duchy of Normandy but remained with the British Crown when the rest of the territory was lost to France. The Channel Islands as a whole are now very much British in their culture, outlook and government, but with a local Normandy-French flavour that is revealed in some of the place names, surnames and customs.
 * As for water lanes, named as such these seem to be a fairly uniquely Guernsey-ish thing. Apparently they began as people using the shallow streams to walk along in the river or on the narrow bank alongside (see this postcard, or this one, or this photo). In England itself, such an arrangement might more usually be called a Hollow way or holloway (from where we get Holloway, London) or 'sunken lane'. These are tracks which are at a level lower than the surrounding area, and often but not always followed the course of a river in the same way as Guernsey's water lanes. Our article also states that they are common in Normandy, and so I wonder if someone can look at the French article and see what the terminology there is.
 * Speculation klaxon - I suspect (without any particular evidence other than having holidayed in Guernsey 15 times or so in 20 years, and being familiar with the English landscape) that since Guernsey is a particularly crowded island, and also in the south west of the island the landscape is particularly jagged and hilly, making finding a path for a track difficult, it made sense for people to follow the course of rivers to get around (since the river naturally takes the easiest path). I'd guess that the 'water lane' title in Guernsey was influenced by Norman French, rather than taking the English term holloway, hence the difference.
 * Whether the track in the painting would be considered a water lane, I can only guess, but I don't think it looks like a holloway, so I wonder if it is maybe more of a descriptive title (like the way by/to/across the water). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:47, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you Mike. Incidentally, "lost to France" should probably be "returned to France". Basemetal  09:41, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Well maybe. The French surrendered the freehold of Normandy in the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte of 911. You can't give something away for ever and then expect to get it back later. Alansplodge (talk) 10:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, but the Duke of Normandy remained a vassal of the King of France. Normandy was not "given away". Basemetal  16:10, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I think I'm losing this, but Edward III of England thought he was the King of France too - see English claims to the French throne. Alansplodge (talk) 23:07, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Which incidentally is part of why I say it's absurd to attribute the title "Duke of Normandy" to the Queen: if the title wasn't lost by the treaty of 1259, then it was merged in the French crown in 1340. —Tamfang (talk) 08:41, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It's a little more lofty-sounding than "the Duke of some of the Channel Islands." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:42, 20 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Just to add to the details above, the reason I mention the landscape of the south west of Guernsey is because that's where the majority of the water lanes seem to be, particularly around Moulin Huet, as made famous by Renoir - Cucumber Mike (talk) 13:05, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


 * A few minutes searching local street maps for this part of England shows roads called Water Lane all over the place (15 in Norfolk, 23 in Suffolk). Some follow a stream, some cross a stream, some lead to a stream, and some appear to have no visible connection with any stream or river (so may indicate the location of the old village well that people regularly went to to collect water). Wymspen (talk) 11:44, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Number of periods of the Spanish trill?
WP article Trill consonant says that "usually a trill vibrates for 2–3 periods", but may vibrate for up to 5 periods, "or even more if geminate". Is this variation in the number of periods of a trill that the article mentions an individual thing or can the number of periods vary from language to language but not from one speaker to another of the same language? For example does the Spanish trill (in a given location) have a given number of periods for all speakers? By "Spanish trill" I mean the first consonant of "rojo" and the second consonant of "perro". It is sometimes called the Spanish "double r" but in some cases it is actually written as a "single r". Basemetal 02:41, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I am not sure where you are ever going to find a geminate doble erre, since I am not aware of any Spanish words that end in rr. The only time one gets a trill from a single r is at the beginning of words like reyes where all "r"s are trilled automatically.  So no initial flaps, and no final trills.  The longest rhotic sequence I can imagine would be something like por reir "due to laughing" where you would have a flap followed  by trills.  Even there I would expect something of a hiatus. μηδείς (talk) 04:48, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The bit about a geminate wasn't meant to apply to Spanish. I was just quoting the article which was not dealing exclusively with Spanish. Neither the article nor I said that there can be a geminate trill in Spanish. The real point of my question was that the number of a periods of a trill can vary from language to language, so my question was: what is the number of periods of a Spanish trill? And yes I was aware that initial r always represents a trill since I specifically said "the first consonant of the word rojo". For the sake of completeness I'll add that a single r inside a word, when it follows certain consonants (e.g. after the consonant 'l': alrededor) is also pronounced as a trill, whereas it is always a flap at the end of a word and in the middle of a word when it follows some other consonants. The only place where a trill (rr) can contrast with a flap (r) is inside a word between two vowels (e.g. perro vs pero). Any answer to my real question? Basemetal  08:18, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I realized after I posted my response that you were probably alluding to geminate trills in other languages, but I was falling asleep at the time, and unable to keep my eyes open long enough to respond. I am curious what is meant by "periods"?  Length of time, or number of flaps?  What I can say off the top of my head is that 'elegant' speech usually has about three vibrations, dramatic speech and song may have more, and dialectical speech often substitutes /x/ for at least the first vibration, so that one gets the velar fricative followed by a single flap or two vibrations at most.  In my speech, ruido "noise" would normally start with a three-vibration trill, while internally, as in perro, I am likely to say /xr/ where the trilled r has only two vibrations at most.  I'll see if I can find a source. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure they mean the number of flaps. Since they say "2-3 or up to 5 or even more". Those are discrete numbers. A length of time would be a continuous quantity (in seconds or some fraction of a second). By length of time I suppose you mean the total duration of the whole trill, which is of course another parameter that may be significant and interesting (but which the article doesn't mention) since: (total duration of the trill) = [(number of flaps - 1) times (length of the interval between flaps)] + [(number of flaps) times (duration of each individual flap)]. But how did you manage to count the number of vibrations in your pronunciation of "ruido" or "perro"? You must have a pretty good ear! Isn't there an experimental way to count the number of vibrations on a sonogram or something? Basemetal  19:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I was again, actually going to say that people are not the most reliable reporters on their own speech habits, but I most certainly have more than two flaps in ruido and am fairly certain I have three. Length in liguistics is usually relative, not absolute.  See morae and vowel length.  I would say canto and carro are of about the same length, the second perhaps a little longer.  The word errores might be a little shorter than estrechos.  Again, I am not in a position to given an objective judgement.  Unfortunately, the sources I have are not books on quantitative phonology, but dialectology, and they all assum you already know the difference between r and rr. μηδείς (talk) 03:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I did observe that at least some Iberian speakers articulate the final -r quite strongly with a trill. And they were news anchors and journalists on 24 Horas. --Explosivo (talk) 13:25, 20 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Do you have the name of any of those personalities?  I could look for a clip on youtube.  In any case, even if they do trill their final /r/s it would lead to no confusion, because there is no phonemic contrast between a trill and a flap except medially, as pointed out above. μηδείς (talk) 00:14, 21 September 2016 (UTC)


 * As of right now, I can't recall any names, but at about 3:10 in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEkXFPLdUJQ), it is mentioned that this is indeed a thing, but not the "most common" pronunciation. I don't know how socially acceptable this is though. --Explosivo (talk) 23:56, 21 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks! That was very interesting.  I watch a lot of Almodóvarr, I'll have to look out for it there. μηδείς (talk) 01:43, 22 September 2016 (UTC)


 * That's all very interesting indeed but you (or anyone) have not yet answered the original question. Now if you don't know maybe you or someone could try answering this question instead: How would one go about counting the number of vibrations of the Spanish (or any other) trill experimentally? Basemetal  08:21, 22 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I haven't delved much into acoustic phonetics yet, the field of study where acoustic properties are examined. I suppose the differences are visible in spectrograms. The first result gave me: https://lisaloveslinguistics.wordpress.com/2011/03/12/flap-vs-trill-r-vs-%C9%BE/. It's a little self-conducted experiment, but it's a start. --Explosivo (talk) 13:13, 22 September 2016 (UTC)