Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 April 11

= April 11 =

Phonetic lowering of u to o
Can anyone give a historical example of u becoming o in a language? Idielive (talk) 01:34, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Germanic a-mutation has some examples. Cheers ✦  hugarheimur 01:51, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * It's not too clear from that article, but in early Germanic, proto-Indo-European short "o" had merged to "a", leaving kind of a gap in the system, so that in early Northwest Germanic the short "u" phoneme developed two allophones, [u] and [o]. Later these became separate phonemes in different ways in the various languages...  Another example is early Romance, where Latin short "u" and long "o" merged as a higher [o] sound (while short "o" became a lower [ɔ] sound). AnonMoos (talk) 09:50, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Chuvash has two dialects, Lower Chuvash (which is the principle dialect), and Upper Chuvash (made up of Hill Maris who were absorbed by the Chuvash people). Lower Chuvash includes the vowel u, and does not use the vowel o in native words. In Upper Chuvash, the u in many words has become an o. Examples in Lower Chuvash: тутӑ (full, taste), укҫа (money), урпа (barley); Upper Chuvash: тотӑ (full), тутӑ (taste), окҫа (money), орпа (barley). —Stephen (talk) 08:45, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Welsh also has examples of a-affection lowering /u/ to /o/, e.g. bod 'to be' from *butā; alternations are seen in some adjectives where the masculine form (which originally ended in -os) has /u/ (spelled w) while the feminine form (which originally ended in -ā) has /o/, e.g. trwm 'heavy (masc.)' ~ trom 'heavy (fem.)'. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:57, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Pretty widespread in Vulgar Latin, and hence in Italian and Spanish. --ColinFine (talk) 20:00, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Sanskrit requires it in ablaut: in certain verb forms, a root's /u/ regularly becomes /o/ or /au/ – both of which were originally diphthongs (/ău, āu/). Similarly /i/ to /e, ai/. —Tamfang (talk) 01:33, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a little different from the other examples given here, in that there's a synchronic morphological alternation between short [u] and long [oː], and this was not actually the result of a "Phonetic lowering of u to o" process (but arrived at by a much more convoluted historical path)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:14, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Alternation
A community centre in the City of London offers yoga sessions on "alternative Thursdays". I think they mean "alternate Thursdays". Is this a common mistake? 81.129.14.0 (talk) 10:24, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Quiet commune. Wymspen (talk) 10:30, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "Alternate" is taking on some of the work formerly done by "alternative", especially in American English; perhaps this reverse is a hypercorrection. jnestorius(talk) 11:10, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The OED gives both meanings for both words. It gives examples for "alternative" in the sense of "alternating" from 1540 ("[A] and [B], patronis alternative of the said personage") to 2000 (" Cars with odd and even registration number plates are allowed into the city on alternative days"). --ColinFine (talk) 20:09, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * British prescriptivists (Victoria Wood excepted in the 1987 cite) are more fussy about which word to use in which context. See here.    D b f i r s   07:07, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

But and however
In traditional grammar, "but" can neither start nor end a sentence. There are many literary counterexamples for starting with "but". Ending with "but" is still considered pretty low-grade, but.

However, "however" serves much the same purpose as "but", yet it can both start and end a sentence (not the same sentence, mind you) without World War III being created.

Why this different treatment? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:54, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "However" is an adverb, modifying the whole sentence and not linking anything. "But" is a coordinating conjunction, coordinating what precedes it with what follows it. In traditional grammar, what precedes or follows it must do so closely—i.e., in the same sentence. The usage with "but" at the beginning of a sentence breaks the symmetry, which is probably why some people don't like it. However. Loraof (talk) 22:20, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * By "traditional grammar", I assume you mean prescriptive grammar, which in most cases can safely be ignored. But the choice is yours.  CodeTalker (talk) 22:59, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It can safely be ignored if you're fine with people thinking you don't know how to construct sentences properly. 86.28.195.109 (talk) 06:59, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If by "properly" you mean "following the arbitrary Latin-based rules invented by prescriptive grammarians" rather than "the way that intelligent, well educated people actually write", then yeah, I'm fine with that. CodeTalker (talk) 17:08, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Prescriptive grammar is used by anyone who writes in a particular high register, such as we use on Wikipedia (e.g., we don't use "ain't" on Wikipedia). One needs to distinguish between two different kinds of prescription: things like the imagined prohibition against starting a sentence with "But" or "And", which has never been followed in high-register literature and so is not really part of the language; and things that really have been routinely followed in the high register, such as the prohibition against "they was". Loraof (talk) 14:08, 12 April 2017 (UTC)


 * See my edit summary here: MOS:HOWEVERPUNC—Radio announcers, please pause. Radio listeners, please wait. Please do not confuse the adverb "however" with the conjunction "but".
 * —Wavelength (talk) 23:08, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * This page here notes adverbial and prepositional uses of "but" where it is used properly similar to "however" and also has a nice description of where "but" and "however" are not perfect synonyms and where the differences in meaning can lead to difference in usage. -- Jayron 32 14:14, 12 April 2017 (UTC)


 * There's an old "rule" that however (=nevertheless) should not be used at the beginning of a sentence, to avoid confusion with conjunctive however (despite the difference in punctuation). I think this may be traceable to Strunk & White, who wrote: "Avoid starting a sentence with however when the meaning is nevertheless. The word usually seves better when not in the first position. ... When however comes first, it means in whatever way or to whatever extent." They recommend changing "The roads were almost impassable. However, we at last succeeded in reaching camp" to "The roads were almost impassable. At last, however, we succeeded in reaching camp". Of course, most folk, before and since, have blithely disregarded this advice, but for some folk it has become a shibboleth; we used to have an editor (now blocked) on Wikipedia who would obsessively rewrite every sentence beginning with however that he found. (For an abolutely perfect rhetorical positioning of however at the end of a sentence, however, see the final sentence of Garrison Keillor's short story "End of the Trail".) Deor (talk) 15:02, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Most varieties of English don't allow for a sentence to end with "but". Jack, do you know of one that does? Itsmejudith (talk) 22:27, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Sentences in English can end with almost any word but but. Akld guy (talk) 07:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Scotland, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand, at least. I can't begin to imagine what "most varieties of English" even means, so I can't comment on Judith's assumption. HenryFlower 09:24, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * That link is a discussion forum that basically shows ", but" can be used anywhere with an ellipsis (", but....") to show that the clause following has been omitted. But that's in informal usage only. I seriously doubt that ",but" can end a sentence anywhere in formal usage. Loraof (talk) 17:17, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If "most varieties of English" means anything, I'd be surprised if "most varieties" were formal. Why would we be particularly interested in formal varieties? Also, it does not just show that. Take the very first example given: That was a lovely cat, but. That's an example of intensive meaning, with no omitted clause. Or if you're only interested in contrastive meanings, the third: I like your cafe', I said truthfully, for something to say. 'I am not staying but'. she said. Again, no omitted clause. HenryFlower 19:58, 14 April 2017 (UTC)


 * In spoken Liverpudlian English (aka Scouse), a sentence contradicting a preceding statement is/was often concluded with the construction ". . . though, but." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.249.244 (talk) 19:13, 13 April 2017 (UTC)