Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 April 25

= April 25 =

"Write a check for a package of chewing gum"
What is the name for a cliché example used as a figure of speech, like "get hit by a truck" for dying young and unexpectedly, or "write a check for a package of chewing gum" for writing a check for trivial amoints, or "the trains run on time" to mean a society is orderly and punctual? Khemehekis (talk) 02:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Metaphor. Bus stop (talk) 02:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * This isn't really a helpful answer (sorry, Bus Stop). "All the world's a stage" and "to grasp a concept", to use two examples from the article, are metaphors, but they don't fall in this category. When someone says "get hit by a truck/bus", they're using one example of a way you could die an untimely death, but they don't literally mean it has to be that example (it could be some other way). What you have as a result is an example, a figure of speech and a cliché, all in one. Some other examples to make it clearer what I mean:


 * They'll get the kids to stand in line and stop swearing. (= Behave in an orderly manner)
 * Sen. Jordan was concerned that if 16-year-olds got the vote, politicians would promise them free ice craem. (= Make pandering campaign promises they cannot keep)
 * Prof. Schnurf lives and breathes science, but when you put him into the real world, he can barely tie his shoes. (= Accomplish elementary tasks that most people learn at a young age)
 * And another example with chewing gum: Joan expects me to walk and chew gum at the same time. (= Do two things that are difficult to do at once) (Although this last one may be more of a simple idiom than in the same category as the others.)


 * What I'm looking for is a term that covers only expressions like these.Khemehekis (talk) 04:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I've never heard those expressions used like that. In what country are they found? CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 04:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I live in Contra Costa County, California. Doing research on Google, I haven't been able to find any search engine hits for "write a check for a pack(age) of chewing gum", but we use it in spoken English here. Khemehekis (talk) 04:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Those aren't necessarily metaphors. I think the word Khemehekis used, cliché, is the best answer.  Incidentally, "making the trains run on time" doesn't just mean making society orderly and punctual; it also means controlling it excessively.  This is specifically a reference to Italy in the Fascist era under Benito Mussolini, whose supporters falsely made claimed he had done that.  In answer to CambridgeBay, that expression and "get hit by a truck" (or bus) are both familiar to me here in Canada, but I don't know if I heard them from people elsewhere; I haven't heard the one about chewing gum.  --76.71.6.254 (talk) 04:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Fascinating, 76.71.6.254! I never knew that about the origins of the phrase "making the trains run on time"! Khemehekis (talk) 04:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard the check item often, if ever; but "unless I get hit by a truck" or train or whatever is kind of gallows humor I've heard often (and used myself); reverse psychology, along similar lines as "break a leg!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:04, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * These are stock phrases. They are used in a variety of ways that are often non-literal. Bus stop (talk) 05:20, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Besides metaphor and cliche, idiom also works. -- Jayron 32 10:52, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The man I worked for often mentioned that he used "reverse psychology" on his customers.  We have an article on this, so now I know what he was talking about. 79.73.128.211 (talk) 10:59, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think they're reverse psychology in any way. I would consider them examples of hyperbole (and terms like idiom, cliche, etc apply as well). Getting hit by a bus is an example of dysphemism, but that's usually a form of hyperbole anyway. Matt Deres (talk) 16:44, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The initial question could be about what we call "overkill". The thing about the truck is a slightly less morbid euphemism for "if I die unexpectedly". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:40, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The trains running on time I had heard but only referring to Mussolini not to a general society. The other two I have never heard in 40+ years in the Arctic. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 02:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The bus thing is pretty standard just a little south of you. The construction is often used when talking about eventualities; "Matt is great at doing payroll, but if he gets hit by a bus tomorrow, there's no backup." I might have heard the gum thing before, but it's not common here in my experience. I'm not sure how many people even use cheques at stores these days anyway. Matt Deres (talk) 12:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * WHAAOE - Bus factor; 'a measurement of the risk resulting from information and capabilities not being shared among team members, from the phrase "in case they get hit by a bus"'. Quite a well known phrase in London (not the Ontario one) too. This page gives a first citation from Joseph Conrad in 1907. Alansplodge (talk) 23:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * You can call it overkill if you want; the linguistic term is hyperbole (and specifically dysphemism (the opposite of euphemism) in cases where the exaggeration is disgusting or morbid). Matt Deres (talk) 12:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Slang for "recreational drug"
The reason for the quotation marks is that I want a slang term for any recreational drug, not a specific one. Is there such an English slang term?--Leon (talk) 18:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The term "dope" enjoys widespread usage in the "recreational drug" community. Bus stop (talk) 19:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I believe the term "drugs" is used. While that term can include legally prescribed drugs taken according to medical guidelines, the context make it quite clear, like "...back when I was on drugs".  Or "...back when I was druggin' ". StuRat (talk) 21:22, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * There's also gear (perhaps mostly a UK usage?). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 07:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Did anyone else start singing Come, sirrah Jack, ho! at this answer?
 * I swear that this tobacco
 * It's perfect Trinidado
 * By the very very mass
 * Never never never was
 * Better gear
 * Than is here
 * --Trovatore (talk) 09:42, 26 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree with StuRat that "drugs" is the most commonly used term, at least in the U.S. As Bus stop notes, "dope" is also relatively common although the term has had different meanings over time and among different cultural groups, e.g., it has been used to refer specifically to heroin by some, or to marijuana by others. One should also be aware of the controversy surrounding the term "recreational drugs", e.g., a medical dictionary that begins its definition of the term in this manner: "A dubious term that trivialises the dangers and serious social implications of the use of drugs..."  - Mark D Worthen PsyD   (talk)  02:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


 * See definition #4 of "shit" at Urban Dictionary. The problem is, of course, that in American English, 'shit' doesn't just mean drugs, it can be used to replace any concrete noun.  --M @ r ē ino 19:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Origin of the phrase "when a man and a woman love each other very much..."
What is the origin of that phrase? So many sources use it whenever a topic about making babies pops up. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 21:09, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * It's supposed to mimic a parent explaining sex to their child. Not sure if it mimics any particular instance of "the talk", though. StuRat (talk) 21:18, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The sequel of Finding Nemo had a variant of this, which led Dory the blue fish to find her parents. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 21:43, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I did a bit of searching in Wikiquote, the IMDB, and Google Books to see what the oldest example of the expression I could find was. I found several uses on 21st-century TV shows, but the oldest one turned out to be in a 1999 book, The Girlfriends' Guide to Toddlers, by Vicki Iovine.  The passage reads:
 * If you start in on the seed and the sperm thing, I promise you your Girlfriend status will be called into question. Children never tire of hearing about how loved they area, so this is your opportunity to say something like "When a Mommy and a Daddy love each other so very much and want to share that love with a baby, God (Khrishna, Vishnu, Mother Nature, Home Shopping) lets a baby grow in the mommy's tummy."
 * I rather doubt that everyone else using the expression is copying this particular book, though! --76.71.6.254 (talk) 23:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I can't tell you what age I first heard it for sure, but I can assure you this euphemistic expression is much older than 1999. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Quite agree. There's a 1979 example here, but I'm sure it's older than that. --Antiquary (talk) 10:11, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It was already a stock phrase by at least 1986. Matt Deres (talk) 12:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Here's a 1906 magazine article where you can see the phrase in its *ahem* pre-conception: it's not yet a euphemism for sex, but it is an entree to discussing sex in polite company. --M @ r ē ino 19:53, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

My project.....
(1) I wonder how my project is doing?

(2) I wonder how is my project doing?

I think the former is correct but not sure why. --AboutFace 22 (talk) 21:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * (US) I would say "going" instead of "doing", in both cases. The first isn't phrased as a Q, so shouldn't end in a Q mark.  The 2nd needs a comma after "wonder", and would be a question you ask of somebody who knows how your project is going (say if they took over while you are out sick). StuRat (talk) 21:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * See also Contact clause, particularly "direct questions normally use subject-verb inversion, while indirect questions do not". Deor (talk) 21:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Sure "going" is perhaps more appropriate but there is a context here. My project is in the hands of someone I know. This individual is working on it, so I feel "doing" is probably OK. The project is not moving by itself. So, it seems you are saying both variants are acceptable, yes? --AboutFace 22 (talk) 23:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * You might then say: I wonder, how is Jonn doing on my project? ~Anachronist (talk) 20:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)


 * As written, second phrase is not idiomatic, and I see not point in torturing it with extra punctuation to make it acceptable, as doing so entirely changes the emphasis. μηδείς (talk) 23:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * You might say it out loud, but you'd be less likely to put it in writing, as it's kind of slangy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, you could say:

"I wonder, 'How is my project doing?'"
 * which is a bit better, idiomatically speaking, c.f. "Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary" -- Jayron 32 10:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)


 * That is precisely the sort of Procrustean torturing with punctuation I advocated against, and it is still wrong, since one does not quote oneself after wonder. You might say:  "I see your project is doing fine.  I wonder, how is my project doing?"  But this is  going out of one's way to make a context where that sequence of words is idiomatic.  (One can make almost any sequence of words idiomatic by creating a wider context to do so.)  On its own, as written, the second sentence is unnatural. μηδείς (talk) 18:07, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, "I wonder how my project is doing" is a statement of fact about the speaker's mental state, while "I wonder, how is my project doing?" is an obliquely expressed polite question, with the implied expectation that the person addressed will comment on the project's progress. μηδείς (talk) 16:19, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I think it is good: "The second phrase is not idiomatic." I stick with "doing" too. That solves it. Thank you. --AboutFace 22 (talk) 10:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)