Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 August 20

= August 20 =

ESL accreditation group for China?
I recently had a recruiter offer a not-to-good to believed come-on for teaching ESL in China. She seemed to say all the right things, but I read about 20 articles on the subject, and I have heard some horror stories (such as from vice.com) and the glowing stories seem to come from shady agents. Is there a group like Consumer Reports that ranks/accredits these agencies? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 03:22, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I found this interesting article. The article shows a promising future, because Chinese parents are quickly realizing the fake academic and personal credentials of the foreign teachers who once took advantage of the Chinese education system simply because they looked white and could speak a rudimentary level of English. Nowadays, it makes sense to hire a bilingual Chinese-English teacher, because the parents can check on the progress of their child by speaking Chinese to the teacher, and the teacher has a native or near-native level of English, along with knowledge of linguistics and effective pedagogy. If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 17:55, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Though schools that can afford it will have multiple English teachers to cover different elements (reading, writing, speaking, listening), and stick the English-only laowai in the speaking class ...Even though, IMO, the students would benefit more from listening to a native teacher and practicing with a Chinese teacher and a native assistant. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Speaking from experience, see if you can speak one-on-one with any of the other foreign teachers working at that institution or at least a neighboring one (that's why I taught at China Jiliang University for two years and probably would've taught there a third if I wasn't getting antsy about trying to teach in Japan ASAP). If possible, find a former foreign employee (that's how I dodged a virtual slavery gig in Bejing).  If they don't assume that sponsoring your work visa is requirement for hiring you, that's a red flag.  If they don't have any other foreign employees... I'd consider that a potential red flag.  A new business or school is more likely to hire a foreigner who is already there.  They can't say that they couldn't get one of the foreigners to speak with you, either (most contracts usually have a little clause that ask for small bits of help with the school like that or for translation or something; and many foreign teachers want to meet or screen their future fellow foreign coworkers).
 * Try to find out what the pay is. At least in Hangzhou, something like 6000 RMB a month (+/- 1000) was believable for a long-term job.  Higher if there are no benefits besides the work visa, as low as 4500 if they give you room, board, insurance, and a lazy schedule.  Not much by American standards, but that's well into the upper-middle class over there.  Very short jobs like a week-long summer camps or a weekend talent show might pay 1000 a day.
 * Also, heads up, people of color face a lot of ignorant discrimination there, in part because the concept of racism we take for granted doesn't translate well into Chinese. One of my coworkers wasn't allowed into the teacher's gym because they assumed that since she was black, she could only have been from Africa (and not American) and so couldn't have possibly been a teacher.  Old people would also just touch her hair -- all the time, without asking.  I would regularly see shopkeepers give African students (and only African students) glares of suspicion (not the fascination I'd provoke) that would embarrass my "not racist" relatives. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't want to simply copy the email here, but they did address providing you with a Z-Visa and a TEFL certification, as well as a bilingual native-Chinese teaching assistant. The BA requirement is no problem.  The contract was for a year, and paid $1000-$1200 a month plus bonuses and raises, a resign-bonus, and paid Chinese holidays and Christmas.  Airfare is paid, as well as a one-time $900 moving expense.  The children are aged 2-15.  It was made clear you would be paid $1100 for return airfare after a year; otherwise you are on your own.
 * Is there an experienced teacher here who can recommend a reputable agency that functions out of the US?
 * My main concerns are medical (I take an allergy and a blood-pressure pill, as well as a controlled benzo at bedtime, and an occasional mild opioid IBS pill, but otherwise my health is excellent). I would need to get glasses before going, as my reading is deteriorating with age.  I am also concerned with electronic compatibility and communication with the US.  I understand pollution can be bad, and know of a teacher who broke her contract after six months due to breathing problems.
 * The race issues sound familiar. I look Hungarian, and was addressed in Hungarian when I lived in a Hungarian neighbourhood.  I also had hair-touching sessions in college, where I got my hair braided in a black style, and we took turns running out hands through each others hair, although this was consensual.  I am tall, my father is 6'2.  He scared Korean children when he worked there.  I am used to surprising blacks and Latins who get on an elevator and assume I must be a government official to be in their building.
 * Finally, how does pay work? Is it in RMB or USD?  Are American or Chinese taxes withheld?  How do you access your cash?  How is it transferred back to the US?  And does one live on a campus?  I understand that is normal, and you are assigned a roommate.  What does one do for entertainment on one's own?  Are books, music, and DVD's allowed?  My laptop?  As for food, I'll eat anything but eyes and gakh. μηδείς (talk) 19:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I think you should send Ian Thomson an e-mail. Ian Thomson sounds like a foreigner living in China or who used to work in China as a teacher, probably because he majored in English (from his profile). That way, personal e-mail addresses can be kept private instead of exposed on the web. He may be able to answer your other questions here, but the question about a personnel recommendation may require you to e-mail him. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 20:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Until a couple of months ago, I was teaching at China Jiliang University. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:46, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I would be surprised if the school or the government forbids books, music, and computers. Many urban Chinese people and even the poor own digital devices. China is not like North Korea, where the government scrutinizes on the foreigner and his tourist guide's every movement. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 20:08, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * For food, I don't know what gakh is. But I do know that offal is very popular. Refusing to eat the whole animal seems to be an American thing. Offal in America is often fed to the dogs and cats. Even Europeans eat offal, like haggis. Just to be safe, vegetarian meals may be better, because it's more difficult to fake vegetables than it is to fake meat. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 20:18, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Gakh is a Star Trek reference, IIRC. Many Chinese people are confused at the western concept of vegetarianism.  Most places have a health rating that reflects the owner's relationship with the health inspector.  Eat where lots of college students eat because their parents will sue restaurants with bad food into the stone age.  Ian.thomson (talk) 20:46, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Depending on what city you're going to and how much work they're expecting, that sounds realistic (I think kids paid more than university and I taught university). The only major difference between that offer and what I had is I got paid less (like $700-$750 depending on the exchange rate, no moving expenses beyond reimbursing plane tickets), didn't have an assistant, but only worked like 16 hours a week with college kids, lived rent-free in a nice hotel on campus, and got a food card for the cafeteria and school store.  Oh, and my school said they'd only reimburse me for the plane ticket only aft--and then they reimbursed me before classes even started.
 * I was hired directly, not through an agency. The only agency I looked into for getting to China made you pay 1/10th of the cost you'd need to get there yourself for a 1/10 chance of getting a job (did not even let them know I exist).  Aclipse also goes to China but I looked into them for South Korea (and that was reasonable enough if not ideal so it's probably similar for that).  The deal you got sounds like mine except you're getting paid more but don't get a free apartment.
 * You're probably gonna need to pack your own medicine but that shouldn't be too much of an issue. I had trouble getting paracetamol/Tylenol because most of the pharmacies are totally into TCM (and not even the parts that you can believe might have a scientific basis... It'd be like going into a western pharmacy and seeing it divided into cholic, phlegmatic, melancolic, and sanguine sections).  Pharmacists often don't really know what they're selling, either (they would insist that my 6'2", 200+ lb self should only take 500 mg of paracetamol every 12 hours for headaches only; when any American doctor would tell me to take up to 1000 mg every 8 sober hours for any kind of muscle ache).  I packed five nasal sprays, two 250-pill bottles of Tylenol, a 100 pill bottle of Aleve, and some other supplementary sinus pills and customs didn't hassle me about it at all (although I had divided them between two suitcases so it looked less like I was hauling all the drugs in the world).  Though that was OTC stuff, not a benzo or opioid.  Generally, though, if something doesn't look too suspicious or there's not some sort of clusterfuck that's cranked security up to ridiculous levels of pointlessly symbolic redundancy, most government workers could not give less of a shit. "I looked in there, chabuduo."
 * Adapters for electronics can be found at most hypermarkets and even some of the higher-end convenience stores (or dirt cheap online, my dad got like a bucket of converters for a few bucks). Many electronics are just best replaced over there (except for laptops and maybe standalone music players or tablets).  Unless you already have carrier-unlocked Sim-card phone, you'll need to get a new one there -- do not get one from a Chinese company.  While I was there the Chinese manufacturers started locking boot loaders and recovery mode down so people couldn't clear out the company's adware and gov't's spyware.  If you buy a phone there, look for the Hong Kong ROM and load that on there.  If you can't find that, at least get the English language developer ROM for that phone.  You can get phones cheaper from stores if you haggle enough but you *must* replace the ROM before you put any of your information on there.  Skype and Wikipedia work just fine, some email services do not, and nothing Google related works there.  Get a VPN while you are in the US, don't wait until you get there.  I caught a lifetime membership deal with Windscribe (and a few others) and that's been quite good.  Some other VPN companies occasionally offer similar deals.  Without a VPN, you won't have Facebook or Google.  You can also encourage anyone you want to talk with in America to install WeChat on their phones.
 * Pollution can be bad but it depends on where you are. I've not seen any convincing evidence that the filter masks make much of a difference beyond the placebo effect but I'm also somewhat convinced that a significant portion of the "OMG, the pollution is so bad" is likewise psychosomatic (then again I have 18 Constitution).
 * The pay should be RMB (no one accepts USD there except to convert it to RMB), so you'll be getting something on the order of 7000-8000 RMB a month. The school should help you get set up with a Chinese bank account and hopefully there will be plenty of ATMs throughout town.  My school (and those of everyone else I talked to) had the option to have a portion of your paycheck automatically converted to USD and I think even sent home if you could get your Chinese bank and your American bank to talk to each other.  I use a small credit union so I never bothered with that.  I set up a second Paypal account connected to my Chinese bank account and would pay my American Paypal account whenever I wanted to transfer money (usually $1000 at a time).  Wasn't the only person doing that, either.  That prompted a few phone calls to my parent's house (the contact number I left for my American account) and Mom had to explain "they're both him, he's just sending money home."  It uncommon enough to look suspicious but it's still just common enough they don't question it.  I never paid US taxes while I was there, nor did any other foreign teacher I talked with.  I think you might be getting over the amount where you have to start paying Chinese taxes but employers generally handle that.  I lived on campus but by myself (though since all the other foreign teachers lived on that floor we were almost roommates).  I've never heard of any foreign teacher having to have a roommate in China (though I've heard of that in Japan and Korea).
 * As for entertainment, I moved over a dozen books on religion (including two Bibles and a few more works with "Christianity" in the title or clearly Christian imagery on the cover) through customs without an issue -- customs workers aren't paid enough to give a shit. There should be at least one street market in town where you can buy bootleg DVDs that may or may not work (or may be awesomely awful).  I don't know what Chinese TV is like since I unplugged my TV on the second day never plugged it back in.  Theaters show the big western movies (especially Marvel) and tickets reserved online are pretty cheap.  No one there cares if you torrent stuff without a VPN.  Larger bookstores will have a foreign language books section but it's mostly public domain stuff.  Amazon works there (I think their TV streaming service might be region blocked but not Great Firewall blocked) and most of my friends used Chinese-bought Kindles to read books from their American Amazon accounts.  Find college students and ask them where they eat when they want Chinese food -- emphasize Chinese food or they will take you to bloody McDonald's because "you're American, right?"  Ian.thomson (talk) 20:46, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * If you have relatives in China, then your relatives may invite you to a family reunion dinner. If you have lots of relatives, then, well, make that lots of dinners. But that can be a temporary residence for travelers who just want to see relatives and do some sightseeing. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 02:31, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * [Long time EFL teacher; briefly worked in China years ago] As you've discovered, the EFL industry is a sump, with vanishingly low levels of professionalism among both teachers and employers. The only vaguely reputable US-based agency I know of is teachaway, but it focuses on vacancies for qualified primary/secondary teachers; I don't know if that's your bag. Also, quality of agency doesn't really tell you anything about life at the school; for that, as mentioned above, a present or past teacher there is the only really useful source. Eslcafe is the main forum for EFL teachers, and has two China forums which are useful for investigating particular places and schools; obviously be wary of axes being ground.


 * For what it's worth, on the particular points you mention: air quality is likely to be appalling in any town large enough to need EFL teachers. Of the biggish places, Dalian used to have a reputation for being relatively clean, but that may have changed. I was paid in RMB, and was theoretically allowed to change a proportion of this into foreign currency. For complicated reasons that didn't happen in my case, and it was eventually arranged under the counter. Things may have improved since then. I lived on campus in my own house. Media of various kinds are as censored as you might expect: you can have your fill of mainstream pap, but anything esoteric or sensitive might require judicious use of a VPN. HenryFlower 20:45, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Everyone for your long, helpful, and detailed answers. I found Teaching_English_as_a_foreign_language especially helpful as well. μηδείς (talk) 01:49, 21 August 2017 (UTC)


 * If you need any more further help on tourist-y things, then you may want to visit this page. You can also read the China tourist guide. 50.4.236.254 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:22, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

German town - Ölper or Oelper?
I have started on a stub article about Ölper, a German town within the city Braunschweig which has been the venue of not one but two battles. I have the disadvantage of knowing very little German. Some modern English language histories use the spelling "Oelper" {like this and this) but I was surprised to find a German guidebook which says: "Herzog Friedrich Wilhelm auf seinem Zuge durch Deutschland zur Nordsee in der Nacht vor der Schlacht bei Oelper". The City of Braunschweig website goes with Ölper but has "oelper" in the URL http://www.braunschweig.de/leben/stadtportraet/stadtteile/oelper/index.html  So what is going on here? Alansplodge (talk) 17:02, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * In German_orthography Oe is equivalent to Ö. Bazza (talk) 17:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The two sound identical, even in German. It is very common for English documents to replace Ö with "oe" because it doesn't use any additional characters. Also URLs can run into difficulties handling non-ascii characters -- although modern browsers generally make the difficulties invisible to users.  Anyway it looks like nearly every German source uses "Ölper", including the German Wikipedia article, so that's what I would go with. Looie496 (talk) 17:20, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * [ec] The German article Gefecht bei Ölper uses o-umlaut. Follow that example for the title (i.e., Ölper), and create a redirect Oelper to cover the bases. μηδείς (talk) 17:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The umlaut is correct in this case, but note that there are exceptions to the equivalence between ö and oe. In some place names, the e lengthens the o instead of umlauting it. Examples are Soest, Coesfeld and Itzehoe. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:36, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you kindly. Alansplodge (talk) 17:38, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Alansplodge -- There is (or used to be) a template you could add to the top of a Wikipedia article which output a message something like: "The topic of this article has an umlaut letter in its name: Blärtzen. If such a diacritic letter cannot be used or is not desired, the spelling Blaertzen can be used instead." I can't find that template now, though... AnonMoos (talk) 00:31, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

There was a Robert Ludlum novel about that template's disappearance; The Blärtzen Deletion. μηδείς (talk) 02:53, 21 August 2017 (UTC)


 * That template seems to have been deleted in 2011 or 2012, see Templates for discussion/Log/2011 December 18, but thanks for trying! Alansplodge (talk) 13:25, 21 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the link -- I had no idea it was so controversial. It seems it would have had a better chance of surviving if it had been a German-only template (as I thought it was)... AnonMoos (talk) 18:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)