Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 December 26

= December 26 =

Norwegian names with matronyms
In Norway, it is common to wear the mother's family name as middle name, as in Aksel Lund Svindal. Questions:
 * Is there a way to distinguish this matronym from a second given name? What is the Øen in Sven Magnus Øen Carlsen? What about Kjetil André Aamodt?
 * What is the proper way to deal with this matronym in contexts where not the full name is written, e.g. in sport, when the person is primarily referred to by family name, maybe with the first name appended? Is Aksel Lund Svindal then Lund Svindal, Aksel; or Svindal, Aksel Lund; or is it best to omit the name - Svindal, Aksel? --KnightMove (talk) 19:57, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Magnus Carlsen's middle name "Øen" is his mother Sigrun Øen's surname.
 * There's no simple way of distinguishing matronyms from second given names, other than knowledge about the usage of the name. In the case of Kjetil André Aamodt, "André" is common as a given name, but unusual as a surname, so it is reasonable to assume that it is a given name. Also, his mother's name is Gerd Johanne Aamodt.
 * "Svindal, Aksel Lund" is the correct way of writing the name when making an alphabetic list, unless the names are hyphenated . The law that regulates Norwegian names is here: https://lovdata.no/dokument/NL/lov/2002-06-07-19 . --NorwegianBluetalk 10:28, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * "Svindal, Aksel Lund" is the correct way of writing the name when making an alphabetic list, unless the names are hyphenated . The law that regulates Norwegian names is here: https://lovdata.no/dokument/NL/lov/2002-06-07-19 . --NorwegianBluetalk 10:28, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Son of my Father
Hi,

I'm unclear about the correct capitalization of "Son" and "Daughter". within a sentence - please help to clarify. Examples, "My Son is on holiday", "She had a two daughters".

I have googled, read about it, and I'm still uncertain. I realise there is never a 'right' answer; I'm not a grammar-nazi, but I like to try and be correct.

(The heading seemed an appropriate fun reference to the excellent Chicory Tip song) 86.20.193.222 (talk) 20:21, 26 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Both 'son' and 'daughter' are common nouns, and are never capitalised unless as part of a title or where they're the first word of a sentence. So, "My son is on holiday" and "She had two daughters" (Note: Not "a two daughters").  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:41, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll clarify as below that "Come here, Son" is correct, because son is being used as a form of address. μηδείς (talk) 02:57, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * In German, of course, as in "Nachts Scheint Die Sonne" (the song's original title), things are different. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:51, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * And Mum is different, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.193.222 (talk) 22:39, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, Mum is some individual person's name, or at least the name by which her children call her. Referring to generic "mums" would be different.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:24, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * So would you write "I love my Mum", but "The mums went out"?
 * Also, Can you clarify the distinction between "mum" and "my sister" in that context? Not wishing to be awkward, but that's the nub of my confusion. 86.20.193.222 (talk) 23:57, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * You would say "I love my mum" and "I love my sister, Gertrude (or whatever your sister's name is)." Compare with "I love Mum" and "I love Gertrude." Unless your sister is a nun, in which case "I love my sister, Sister Gertrude." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:41, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what you mean. What do you think is the difference between "I love my sister Jane" and "I love Jane"? Why would the caps be different in those cases? And, if possible, do you have any kind of references to back up your claims? 86.20.193.222 (talk) 03:04, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Gertrude might be Mother Superior, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:53, 27 December 2017 (UTC)


 * The rule is very simple.


 * If the word is used as an unmodified name or in direct address, it is capitalized. "I think Mom went to the store."  Come here, Sis!  The barn is on fire!"


 * But if the term is treated as a possesed or common noun, it is not. "The mothers arrived early."  "My dad can beat up your dad!" μηδείς (talk) 01:35, 27 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but I am still puzzled; I am a bear of little brain. I understand your basic premise, but surely "my Dad can beat up your Dad" is speaking of two specific people, not a common noun? That sentence is not about dads in general, it's about two specific people?
 * I would write "Dear Dad, ..." and "My Dad...".
 * But should one write "I think most dads like cheese"? That feels wrong, somehow. 86.20.193.222 (talk) 03:04, 27 December 2017 (UTC)


 * In the case "my dad can beat up your dad", the speaker may not even know the other person's father's name. He is not addressing the other child's father as "Dad".  He is making what was a common schoolyard boast when I was young.  Contrast this with being in the shopping mall and yelling out, "Where are you, Dad?"  Here, you mean your own father, John Smith, and not every person in the mall who happens to have a child.


 * When the generic statement "male parent" is meant, preceded by a determiner (article or pronoun) the word is common, and not capitalized. When it could be substituted with a person's name, "Where are you, John Smith?" it is capitalized.  (Of course this is not the normal custom in most places.  I always call my parent's Mom and Dad, even though I am well over half their age.  But when I write my sister I say Dad and Mom, because she knows I am speaking of our parents, whom I won't name here.  Yet when I am in the store, I often call out by their given name, or say Mr. or Mrs. Surname! to get specifically their attention.


 * To a certain extent, this is simply convention, since spoken words do not come out capitalized. So just follow the rule, if you use a determiner (the, my, his, those) or the plural (unless, I suppose, your are addressing both of your married gay fathers) then do not capitalize.  But when addressing them without a determiner or referring to them in a context where their name could be substituted, then capitalize.  The latter case will almost always be in personal notes or quoted dialog. μηδείς (talk) 04:20, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Unless it's in a title, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:57, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I do not understand your logic; in the case of "my dad can beat up your dad", surely the speaker knows the name of their own dad, even if they don't know the name of their opponent's dad? 86.20.193.222 (talk) 07:22, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * In that case he's using the titles of the fathers, as distinct from the name he calls his own father. It would be like saying "My father can beat up your father".  No caps required.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:53, 27 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Jack is right. You can also see this by reverting the order, and alternating between the  title and name uses: "Your dad can't beat up my dad" versus "Your dad can't beat up Dad".  The second is simply bizarre due to the asymmetry, and "Dad can beat up Dad" is simply illogical and impossible, since you don't call your rival's dad "Dad".  As an aside, the word title here is more at "job title" than "title of nobility".  That is, one could say "Can you come here, Boss? There's a problem with this account."  or I have an apple for you, Teacher."  In those cases boss and teacher would also be capitalized as forms of address, not generic nouns. μηδείς (talk) 16:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)