Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 July 2

= July 2 =

Special meaning of "league"
This is from Tolkien's The Silmarillion: "Greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves was Khazad-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria; but it was far off in the Mountains of Mist beyond the wide leagues of Eriador, and to the Eldar came but as a name and a rumour from the words of the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains." — Now, what exactly does "league" refer to here? And could somebody perhaps explain the construction "as a name and a rumour from the words of the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains" to me? I don't quite get the meaning. Thanks in advance for any support!--Tidrek (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * See League (unit). It's a slightly rhetorical way of saying "beyond the wide expanse of Eriador". Deor (talk) 20:12, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Tolkien takes a league to be exactly three miles (~4.8 km). So yes, a rhetorical flourish meaning "vast expanse".  "As a name and a rumour":  i.e., from the words of the Dwarves, the Eldar knew the name and some vague information about Khazad-dûm. -- Elphion (talk) 20:29, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes. Since Khazad-dûm had presumably become prominent only after the Eldar traveled westward across the Misty Mountains on their way to Valinor, the Eldar who returned to, or remained in, Beleriand knew of it only what they heard—that is, its name and some scattered information about it—in the talk of the dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod, on the borders of their lands. Is that clear? Deor (talk) 20:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Like the measurement chain, it has become obsolete. Akld guy (talk) 23:53, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * As it happens, the distance between the wickets in cricket is 1 chain. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:10, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * No, it's 22 yards, which is the same. I think it's safe to say that the term "chain" is meaningless today to anyone younger than 50 or so. I can't remember the last time I heard it used explicitly as a unit of measurement. Akld guy (talk) 04:26, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * 22 yards = 66 feet = 1 chain. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:32, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Look mate, read what I wrote. I agreed with you. 22 yards is the same as 1 chain. Don't pick an argument where there wasn't one. Akld guy (talk) 10:48, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I would say "chain" is quite a bit more obsolete than "league". "League" survives in song and poetry, so people are likely to have been exposed to it and even know roughly how far it is.  From less to more obscure, I would say league, fathom, furlong, rod, chain. --Trovatore (talk) 05:44, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * See also Seven-league boots and Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea (the latter being metric leagues of 4 kilometres each according to our article). Alansplodge (talk) 11:57, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Furlongs are widely understood in British and Irish horseracing.  Chains are useful because they are metric (20 metres approx.)   I didn't notice it when I was there, but the frontages in the suburbs of Perth, Western Australia were chain based.   Those wide thoroughfares, which I thought were the turning circle of a line of horse - drawn wagons, are also chain - based..   New Zealand is the same - is Akld guy familiar with the term Queen's Chain? 79.73.134.123 (talk) 13:03, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes I am. That's a historical name retained in legislature, but that doesn't alter the fact that chain is not a unit of measurement used today. Most New Zealanders under the age of 50 or so would not even be aware that chain was once a unit of measurement, let alone what the Queen's Chain is. Akld guy (talk) 22:00, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Don't know if I'd agree on the last point. Well I mean they may not understand very well (including what chain means in the context i.e. that it's a unit of measurement), but it was difficult not to read or hear mention of it if you followed all the debate surrounding the foreshore and seabed especially when it was at it's peak in 2003-2004 or 2005 see e.g.    . Perhaps if you said under the age of 30 since it had died down somewhat by the time they were likely to be getting into that sort of thing and Hobson's Pledge's attempt to revive it hasn't worked yet. Nil Einne (talk) 12:22, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * "as a name and a rumour from the words of the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains" I presume that means that they had heard of it (and had heard rumours about it) from the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, but didn't have any knowledge of it or dealing with it beyond that. Iapetus (talk) 09:42, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks to everyone for your interest and support!--Tidrek (talk) 19:09, 6 July 2017 (UTC)