Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 June 15

= June 15 =

Are the words Muspell, Muspiell, Musburg, and Musbury related?
Are the words Muspell, Muspiell, Musburg, and Musbury related? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.78.220.21 (talk) 14:44, 15 June 2017 (UTC) --172.78.220.21 (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Checking our articles, Muspell or Muspelheim is the realm of the fire giants in Norse mythology, and may come from 'Mund-spilli, "world-destroyers", "wreck of the world"'. Musbury is a village in Devon and the name means 'borough by or near mosses";  Musburg is probably the German equivalent.  The only "Muspiell" I can find is an antagonist in the online RPG Vindictus, and that means the name was made up by the creators.  I would guess it was probably influenced by the Norse word.  Rojomoke (talk) 18:15, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * No etymology is given for Musbury in Wikipedia; did you find that somewhere else?
 * As for Musburg, there is no article of that name in the English or the German Wikipedia. But at Musbury Castle is a stub article in bad English which says that "'Musburg' is most likely the German translation. Due to the fact it is also referenced in the Middle ages and means exactly the same thing." I did also find "M&uuml;sberg" mentioned in the German Wikipedia as an old spelling of de:Moosburg (Federsee), and it says that name derives from a word meaning moorland.  --76.71.5.114 (talk) 19:52, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The "borough by or near mosses" is in Musbury Castle. Rojomoke (talk) 20:32, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, so it is. I only read that after noticing that it wasn't in Musbury.  Silly me. --76.71.5.114 (talk) 21:07, 15 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Don't go by what was said in Musbury Castle (said since I have just removed it), because the etymology there was original research added by the IP-hopper who started this thread (see page history of article). An IP-hopper who for six years or more now (there is a clear track all the way back to 2011) has added their own home-grown theories to a very large number of articles here (always without sources), theories about everything starting with Mu*, regardless of time period, deriving from a middle-high German wording meaning "mosses". - Tom &#124; Thomas.W talk 21:48, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I found in a dictionary of surnames the idea that the Mus in names like Musgrave, with Musbury mentioned, is from mus meaning mouse, or from a byname (nickname) meaning mouse. That sounds plausible but these things are never certain. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:21, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * A much more probable origin in names of Scandinavian origin, or in areas that at times were heavily influenced by Scandinavian/North Germanic languages is IMHO that "mus*" comes from "mosse", meaning marsh/bog (and not mosses, as the IP seems to think, confusing two Scandinavian words with each other: "mosse", a type of wetland, and "mossa", a type of plant). - Tom &#124; Thomas.W talk 16:27, 16 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Eilert Ekwall The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names (1960) says
 * Musbury D[evon], Musbury La[ncs]. ‘Old fort inhabited by mice’ or ‘mouse-burrow’. The first alternative is probable for Musbury D, where there is an ancient camp.
 * John Field Place-Names of Great Britain and Ireland (1980) and A D Mills English Place-Names (1990) agree, in slightly different wording so I guess they didn't copy directly from one another. —Tamfang (talk) 20:22, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Which vs. that
I believe the following to be correct, but am unsure:
 * The same is true in Chinese chess which has an elephant piece ("Xiàng", 象) that serves as a defensive piece, being the only one that may not cross the river dividing the game board.

Comments/suggestions welcome. -- 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8C81:A23:E9F2:E55E (talk) 21:06, 15 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The words are correct, but the "which" clause is a "non-restrictive" (also called "non-defining") clause, so it should be set off with a comma before "which". --76.71.5.114 (talk) 21:10, 15 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, which starts a new clause. You can wrap commas around it. Which provides unnecessary information, whilst that introduces strictly relevant and essential points. That changes the meaning of something, whilst which does not. -Sb2001 (talk) 21:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * But see English relative clauses. Using "which" to introduce "strictly relevant and essential points"—i.e., to introduce a restrictive clause—has a long history in high-level literature, so avoiding "which" for restrictive clauses is merely a preference of some prescriptivists and is not necessary for high-register English. Loraof (talk) 23:56, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, The same is true in Chinese chess is an independent clause, while the rest is a non-restrictive (compound?) clause. -- 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8C81:A23:E9F2:E55E (talk) 21:58, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, "The same is true in Chinese chess" is an independent clause. The rest is a sequence of nested dependent clauses. Since there is only one independent clause, the sentence is not a compound sentence; since it has at least one dependent clause, it is a complex sentence. The last two dependent clauses are restrictive, while the first one is non-restrictive. Since the dependent clauses are nested, the first one includes the entire rest of the sentence. Loraof (talk) 00:10, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I usually know the correct grammar, but often don't understand why it is correct. — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8C81:A23:E9F2:E55E (talk) 15:20, 16 June 2017 (UTC)