Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 May 11

= May 11 =

Author(s) of a Chinese article
Another editor has added a citation from a news article in Chinese to a Wikipedia article. I'm trying to reformat the citation, but I'm not sure who the author is. The article is signed as 晨报记者 周思立 实习生 孙雁如. Is there one or two authors? — Kpalion(talk) 00:29, 11 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Two authors. The Chinese text translates roughly to: "Reporter with the Morning Newspaper 周思立 Intern 孙雁如". The first and the third groups of Chinese characters are not names. --98.115.172.183 (talk) 01:04, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Would you able to provide transcriptions of their surnames and given names? — Kpalion(talk) 09:52, 11 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I am not sure if it is appropriate to recommend this?  I don't know any Chinese, so it may be a good or bad quality tool, no idea. --Lgriot (talk) 13:33, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The reporter's name is Zhou (surname) Sili (given name), in English transliteration; Zhōu (surname) Sīlì (given name), in pinyin.
 * The intern's name is Sun (surname) Yanru (given name), in English transliteration; Sūn (surname) Yànrú (given name), in pinyin.
 * The second set of romanisations I gave above have tonal marks, which by ordinary pinyin grammar are omitted when the names are used in normal English prose, but we do include them on Wikipedia if it is necessary to record the native pronunciation. --165.225.80.115 (talk) 14:13, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot, this is very helpful! — Kpalion(talk) 14:16, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Declined to violence
Just reading through Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge when I got to the last sentence before the heading Third and fourth weeks which reads "Also on January 15, the Oath Keepers anti-government militia group warned of a prospective "conflagration so great, it cannot be stopped, leading to a bloody, brutal civil war" if the situation declined to violence." This strikes me as a odd turn of phrase as I would have expected something along the lines of "if the situation escalated." or "if violence was to occur." I can see violence and declined being used together in a sentence but in the form "violence has declined". So I'm wondering if this is an odd construction or is it a particular feature of certain dialects? CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 15:44, 11 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Sounds a bit strange to my (American) ear. I would have said if the situation deteriorated to violence. Loraof (talk) 15:47, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Or "descended". And it should be "into", not "to". --Viennese Waltz 16:01, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks both. I fixed it up. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 10:41, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Simplified language for American troops
I'm trying to find some sources about an adapted, simplified language taught to American troops posted overseas. I'd like know the linguist that created it, success rate, principles behind it. --Clipname (talk) 17:03, 11 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Basic English was very well-known in the 1930s, but I don't know of any military connection. You probably need to be more specific... AnonMoos (talk) 17:22, 11 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Are you perhaps thinking of the suggestions in the pages of "Instructions for American Servicemen in Britain 1942"?
 * “Almost before you meet the people you will hear them speaking “English”. At first you may not understand what they’re talking about and they may not understand what you say. The accent will be different from what you are used to, and many of the words will be strange, or apparently wrongly used.”
 * Carbon Caryatid (talk) 21:16, 11 May 2017 (UTC)


 * On a different tack, War and Liberation in France: Living with the Liberators by H. Footitt mentions (p. 32) a programme called "Parlez-vous for GIs", which through a series of cartoons in Stars and Stripes, taught basic French phrases, many apparently focusing on how to chat-up French girls. Alansplodge (talk) 21:59, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * A simplified, hybrid language is called a pidgin, and several of them have developed into full-fledged languages on their own with native speakers, known as creoles. Perhaps one of those is the words you are thinking of.  -- Jayron 32 01:01, 12 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Here is a Melanesian Pidgin English phrase book written during WWII for navy personnel. (But the language already existed at that point--it wasn't created specifically for American troops.) Herbivore (talk) 20:05, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Well mercy buckets and silver plates! μηδείς (talk) 00:03, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

You may be thinking of the Yale romanization of Mandarin Chinese, which was invented to help American soldiers communicate with Chinese allies by hewing to English spelling conventions. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 19:11, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I suppose you mean simple, common words and phrases in the local language. I was posted to several posts in foreign countries when I was in the Army. Generally speaking, no list of words and phrases in the local language were offered. I only ever saw this sort of help on two occasions: in Vietnam and (according to my father) in Morocco (1943). The Moroccan Phrase Book was published by the War Department on Feb. 15, 1943, but no mention of a linguist's name, nothing about success rate, and I don't know what you mean by principles behind it. It is 337 pages, about 6" x 5", and includes emergency phrases (I am an American. Where am I? Where are Americans? I am wounded.), and 37 sections such as Colors, Direction, Numerals, Ranks, Terrain features, etc. The format is in three columns (English phrase, Moroccan Arabic equivalent, Pronunciation). An example: Where are the observation posts of your artillery? ⚫ ڢين العساسة الي يجيبوا الاخبار لطبجي ⚫ Feen el-awss-sess-sah ell-ee jee-boo lawkh-bar lee-tawb-jee-ah?
 * The Vietnamese Phrase Book is very similar. Published by the Department of the Army, Pamphlet No. 20-611, 10 July 1962. 176 pages, 7" x 6". It has nine sections plus a vocabulary section. Some of the sections are named Initial Encounter with Locals, Accidental Encounter with Deserters, Social, Enemy Lines of Communication, etc. The format is three columns: English phrase, Vietnamese pronunciation, Vietnamese spelling. An example of pronunciation: Open the door or we will force it. ⚫ Mở kửâ, khâwng thèe chúwng toy fáa kửâ. ⚫ Mở cửa, không thì chúng tôi phá cửa. —Stephen (talk) 02:39, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

English word that means "to walk around the perimeter of land"
I remember a math textbook reported that, a long time ago, people would walk around the perimeter of their own land to establish that the land was theirs. Later, I discovered quite accidentally that there was a formal term that meant exactly this, which then triggered my memory to the time I read that math textbook. What was that term? By the way, why did people have to walk around the perimeter of their property in the first place? Did they really have to walk? Could riding a horse suffice? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 23:07, 11 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Circumambulate? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:11, 11 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Beating the bounds refers to walking the boundaries of ye olde parish. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:24, 11 May 2017 (UTC)


 * As to why... in various places, at certain times, one might buy land based on the time needed to travel it. For example, in colonial Pennsylvania, Thomas Holme purchased as much land "as a man could travel in two days." William Penn was able to buy of the local Indians "as much land as could be walked around in one day by one of his own young men."   His sons bought land in the amount of "two days' journey with a horse, as the said river doth go; northwesterly back into the woods, to make up two full days' journey as far as a man can go in two days from the said station."   These sorts of tract transfers were to be "walked, travelled, or gone over by persons appointed for that purpose."   So the reason was a sort of primitive surveying. Obviously you'd be selling more land if the travelling were on horseback rather than on foot, so the two methods were not interchangable. - Nunh-huh 23:37, 11 May 2017 (UTC)


 * In New England, this is an old practice called Perambulating the Bounds and it has survived into modern times as an excuse for town officials to get drunk. Here and here are more examples.  -- Jayron 32 00:50, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, circumambulate was what I was looking for. I'll go with JackOfOz's answer. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 03:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Perambulation works in British English too; see Perambulation of Epping Forest. Alansplodge (talk) 10:50, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * To answer the question of why they did it, the boundaries of a settlement were often described in words, and it would be useful to go round once a year to see whether "the old ash tree" was still a meaningful landmark. It is clear it was also a ceremonial occasion. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:59, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * And to make sure that everyone knew which tree or stone it was; "the boys were themselves whipped or even violently bumped on the boundary-stones to make them remember" according to our article. In the perambulations of Royal Forests which I mentioned above, officers of the Crown would check that nobody had illegally enclosed forest land, or sometimes change the boundaries to increase the tax yield. I suspect that these royal perambulations were done on horseback as a boundary might be dozens of miles. Alansplodge (talk) 13:09, 12 May 2017 (UTC)