Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 May 13

= May 13 =

Conocer with or without the a?
I was recently at a store that had a sign that said this in bold letters: "Conozca nuestro Gerente y comparta su experiencia de __________." Having learned Spanish as a foreign language in secondary school, I think the conocer should be complemented with a personal a. Saber means knowledge of facts, while conocer means knowledge of people. Then, I did a quick search and found some examples that suggested it might be acceptable to not have the personal a. Still not sure if they are correct, though. What is the rule for using the personal a? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 00:08, 13 May 2017 (UTC)


 * You definitely would not leave out personal a in ¿Conoces tú al profesor?. Here it doesn't sound too grating, but that may because in speech the -a ending of the verb would tend to be combined with the preposition.  My feeling is that it is substandard.  You wouldn't leave it out in "Primero, maten a todos los abogados…" μηδείς (talk) 17:26, 13 May 2017 (UTC)


 * My informant has confirmed that Conozca nuestro Gerente y comparta su experiencia... is uneducated, and typical of second generation immigrants to America. The personal a is mandatory here in standard Spanish. "Gerente" should not be capitalized either, it's another Anglicism. μηδείς (talk) 03:33, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * It's common for second generation immigrants to write conozca nuestro gerente because "conozca" and "conozca a" are pronounced exactly the same. If a different form of conocer had been used, such as conoces, the personal a would have a distinct sound and would probably have been written. —Stephen (talk) 12:32, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, Stephen, I said exactly that in the first answer on this thread. But thanks for the support.  Gracias por apollarme. μηδείς (talk) 23:59, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the nitpicking, μηδείς, but it should be "apoyarme" (with a Y rather than LL). The pronunciation would still be the same, though! :) –FlyingAce✈talk 03:07, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * It was an intentional, inside joke, "to stick me with a chicken". But I am glad someone is paying attention. :)
 * μηδείς (talk) 11:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Diacritical mark on the e in wretched and winged
I don't get why wretched and winged both have two syllables instead of one. Sometimes when written, there is a diacritical mark above the last e. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 01:46, 13 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree that "wretched" has 2 syllables but "winged" seems like 1 to me. "Saying "wretched" as one syllable would sound like "retched", meaning "vomited". StuRat (talk) 02:44, 13 May 2017 (UTC)


 * There are two meanings for "winged". The past tense of "to wing" (to shoot at a bird but only hit the wing) has one syllable. The adjective that means something has wings (the mythical winged lion) has two syllables. -Arch dude (talk) 05:08, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, dictionaries agree that "winged" as an adjective can be pronounced with one syllable. See in: Collins, Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, Oxford, and MacMillan.  However, the first three of those say that the two-syllable pronunciation also exists.  Collins specifically associates the two-syllable version with US and poetic usage. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 05:26, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * See also Grave_accent.--Shantavira|feed me 06:21, 13 May 2017 (UTC)


 * When such words were used in poetry or in songs, there was a custom of adding the accent to the final "e" to indicate that it should be emphasised (to fit the required metric pattern). It was particularly common on the word "blessed" when used in hymns. Wymspen (talk) 09:46, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd say the 2-syllable version is still more prevalent, and not just in hymns. The 1-syllable version crops up as a past tense verb in simple declarative statements like "The priest blessed the child", "I've been blessed with good health", that sort of thing.  But the 2-syllable version is most everywhere else, including all or most adjectival/gerundive uses: the Blessed Sacrament, the Blessed Trinity, of blessed memory, Brian Blessed, Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta (before she was canonized) ...  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:25, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Lord, I hope she was deceased before she was cannonized! μηδείς (talk) 00:19, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * It's the loss of the vowel between Chaucer and Shakespeare that needs to be explained, not its retention in certain cases. Originally, all simple past verbs in -ed pronounced it as a full syllable: "roll-ed" and "ask-ed" had two syllables.  Over time, the -ed was assimilated to a -t after voiceless consonants and -d after voiced consonants and vowels, except in words ending in the dental consonants "t" and "d" where confusion would result (you would not be able to distinguish wound from woundd with the vowel missing.


 * Stu has it right that in many cases adjectives like wretched would be confused with other words. The usage continues in archaic forms "dearly beloved", poetry (or where meter matters), and where two different senses exist: "learned" meaning "educated, adj." and meaning "was taught".  That the wretched forms are original is shown in texts from Shakespeare to the 19th century, where the silent e was replaced by an apostrophe--the writers were aware the original sound was being dropp'd.


 * BTW simple past and English_verbs have absolutely no references, and seem to be written by people without the historical knowledge to explain the phenomenon. Here's a source from the OED, scroll down to the weak past tense. μηδείς (talk) 17:16, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Obligatory reference. HenryFlower 21:50, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I actually had a Taxi driver once tell me I was "wise and learnèd" after I asked him what his life was like in Nepal. (No American had ever guessed his origin.)  The fact his name was Indic while his appearance was Tibetan was a dead giveaway. μηδείς (talk) 00:22, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Then, of course,there's the doubly enigmatic Ms. Michael Learnèd. μηδείς (talk) 00:27, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed the link. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 01:10, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Don't refactor other's comments. μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

How to find language partner for Cajun French?
Hello, I am from Latin America and I am visiting the US and Canada for one year and part of that time I have an internship nearby Lafayette, in the state of Louisiana. I am told that there are many French speakers there in that part Louisiana, but theyre French is very different. Before I move there in October I would ask to get some practise learning Cajun French (I speak a very little Europe French). Is there some web site where I can ask and find a person who can tutor me maybe over Skype? And I can teach language or music lessons for as an exchange. Thanks for advise! 209.197.170.140 (talk) 23:16, 13 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd just suggest you study up on your French and maybe buy a book on Cajun vocab. For example, look up the origin of the term Zydeco. Accent is pretty easy to pick up, and the Cajuns should understand you, even if you don't understand them.  It's like being American, and watching a Monty Python sketch in a heavy local British accent.  You get it eventually. Hopefully someone else has an actual source, but youtube might be a good place to start. μηδείς (talk) 03:20, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * It's worth pointing out that only about 10% of Lafayette residents speak some form of French at home (and I would guess that the overwhelming majority of them are fluent in English as well), so it's certainly not necessary to learn any French of any variety to get around there. But it's definitely a fun way to experience some of the local culture.  There are some resources here, but the free online course offered by Tulane that they link to sadly seems to have disappeared from the Internet entirely. -Elmer Clark (talk) 06:28, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Agreed. It's not Cajun French they need to learn, but Cajun English, by which I mean English, but with the addition of all those terms and pronunciations that have made it into English from Cajun French.  It's quite unlikely they would ever be required to speak any form of French in Louisiana, as businesses there will mostly cater to English speakers.  A good start might be in watching videos on Cajun cooking, like this one from Justin Wilson (chef): .  In that one 10 minute video I heard "sausage" pronounced "sawseej", "onion" pronounced "annie-on", "siren" pronounced "sireen", "chicken" pronounced "shicken", "things" pronounced "tings", and "gizzard" pronounced with the emphasis on the last syllable.  The terms borrowed from French I heard were roux and andouille.  He also used the unusually phrasing "What I'm gonna did" and he opened with a joke.  So, this is a more entertaining way to learn Cajun English.  StuRat (talk) 20:28, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The user already speaks English, and actually seems intersted in Cajun French, but this is the "what the OP is really thinking even though he didn't say so desk", so quien suis-je de penser? μηδείς (talk) 00:30, 16 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The OP doesn't speak Cajun English and seems to be under the false impression that they need to learn Cajun French to communicate in Louisiana. This appears to be an example of the XY Problem, currently being discussed on the talk page, where they really want to learn how to best communicate with the natives there, but, due to their false assumption that this means they need to learn Cajun French, asked us about that instead.  Further, they currently speak "very little Europe French", and learning Cajun French from that point would be an huge undertaking, while they seem competent in English (other than using "theyre" when they should have used "their"), so picking up Cajun English from that point would be far easier, and more useful for the desired task. StuRat (talk) 17:10, 16 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The OP doesn't need to learn any French (Cajun or otherwise) to fully communicate with anyone in Louisiana. Everyone, even those for whom Cajun French is a native language, speaks perfectly fine (if accented) English, and they should be perfectly capable of communicating in Standard English.  If they just want to learn Louisianian French for a sense of the culture, or out if idle interest in the subject, music may be the best way to get into it.  Louisiana French literature may be harder to come by, but the music is pretty rich, Cajun music and especially the Zydeco varient, are rich musical traditions.  The word Zydeco is actually an English corruption of the song "Les Haricots sont pas salés" (The Green beans Arem't Salty) That link is to a version of the song by Cajun French band leader Ambrose Thibodeaux (he doesn't have a Wikipedia article but here is his AllMusic profile).  I would look up recordings of his songs and other traditional Cajun artists; such as Clifton Chenier (King of Zydeco) it may give you some insight into the Cajun culture.  -- Jayron 32 18:55, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Other little bits of Cajun French culture, as I think on it, are phrases and words like "Laissez les bons temps rouler" and the word "Lagniappe". -- Jayron 32 19:13, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Re: "Everyone, even those for whom Cajun French is a native language, speaks perfectly fine (if accented) English, and they should be perfectly capable of communicating in Standard English." I agree that almost everyone there also speaks English, but don't agree that they are all capable of communicating in standard English.  If they have a thick enough accent, somebody who speaks standard English may not be able to understand them (much less the OP, who probably speaks English as a second language).  This is why I suggest studying up on the Cajun accent, phrases, wording, etc., in English. StuRat (talk) 23:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)