Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 May 20

= May 20 =

'not' favourable [reposted]
[reposted to give time for answers μηδείς (talk) 04:28, 20 May 2017 (UTC)]

what is the antonym (opposite) of "favourable/favorable" (unfavorable/unfavourable is not the answer).68.151.25.115 (talk) 11:55, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Adverse? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  11:59, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * What is your basis for saying "un-" is not the answer? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:08, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


 * i mean 'give me a word without the prefix un-'.68.151.25.115 (talk) 03:16, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


 * So you don't object to "unfavourable" as such, it's just that you would like a list of additional antonyms. Right? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:33, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Correct68.151.25.115 (talk) 20:32, 19 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Would I be right in surmising that this is a crossword clue, where you already know that "un-" is precluded? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.60.183 (talk) 00:39, 20 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Thesaurus.com has several antonyms for favorable (eg: disadvantageous) (here). — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:0:0:0:1 (talk) 08:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Names of nationalities in ASL
I'd like to understand the motivation for choosing the names of nationalities in ASL. Has this been analyzed by linguists?

Some look prejudiced nowadays, like using the same word for 'Mexican' and 'bandit'. In the case of 'American' they do a sign that resembles several strips. I assume this is an allusion to the American flag. In others it's difficult to see the inspiration. The sign for 'Canada' is knocking twice on the chest with the thumb up. Clipname (talk) 10:48, 20 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The motivation is not prejudiced, but to select visual characteristics that stand out. Russian is represented by hitting the hands on the hips as in the Russian squat dance. German has the hands crossed at the wrists and moving the fingers like feathers, so the hands are like the wings of an eagle (deutscher Adler). Chinese is the finger-spelling C placed at the outside corner of the eye, indicating squint eyes with initial C. Japanese is the same with a J. Korean is the same with a K. Italian is the finger-spelling i making the Catholic sign of the cross at the top of the forehead. Swedish is made with a finger-spelling S moved in a circle in front of the forehead. There are more than one sign for many things, and I don't know what sign you are referring to as Mexican/bandit. When I sign Mexican, I make a finger-spelling X which I move from my right shoulder to my left hand. Bandit is made by forming a pistol with the right hand (two fingers for the barrel, thumb up for the hammer), held in front of the nose. There is another sign for Mexican, where you make a V with your index and middle fingers and hold them in front of your forehead, representing a sombrero. The sign for American is made by interlacing your ten fingers and moving the resulting two-handed sign in a horizontal circle, representing a cooking pot with the contents mixing together (a melting pot). Sensitive people may read prejudice into some signs, but no prejudice was ever intended. Other than the finger-spelling, ASL signs are mostly based on the visual, because that is the principal sense they have to use to know the world. —Stephen (talk) 16:52, 21 May 2017 (UTC)


 * What's the sign and rationale for Spain/Spanish or Europe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hofhof (talk • contribs) 18:56, 21 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I got the Mexican sign it from ASL for dummies. May it be the old sign?
 * Rather than prejudiced, it's not PC. But I suppose the same happens in all languages. A common name about a group of people can be associated to something or get a negative connotation. Clipname (talk) 20:52, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Not eating anything that has eyes
How do you call someone who does not eat anything that has eyes? Noneyetarian? --Hofhof (talk) 18:19, 20 May 2017 (UTC)


 * A non-potato-eater?   D b f i r s   18:26, 20 May 2017 (UTC)


 * A ovo-lacto (or lacto-ovo) vegetarian, as they wouldn't object to eating animal products, e.g. dairy and eggs. -- Deborahjay (talk) 19:27, 20 May 2017 (UTC)''
 * No, because Hofhof's mythical creature would be quite happy eating worms. HenryFlower 19:57, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Don't expect biological facts and ideological stances to coincide. Milk products and unfertilized eggs do not have eyes, but almost all other animals, including starfish and nematodes can sense light, whether or not they have complex eyes.  I dated an ovo-lacto vegetarian for 10 years, and they wore leather shoes for hiking, admitting that the position was a personal preference, not an absolutely defensible and logical position. μηδείς (talk) 21:26, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * There's no need for snark; two seconds of searching would show you that the maxim of not eating anything that has eyes is common enough. This non-RS suggests that they are Ovo-lacto vegetarians, as Deborahjay mentioned. And, while I'm sure they'd appreciate you letting them know they could eat worms, it's a slogan clearly meant to emotionalize the issue rather a biological rule to be pedantically applied (cf. "Don't Eat Anything With A Face", "Don't Eat Anything With A Mother", etc.) Matt Deres (talk) 22:04, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The snark was in the original question. HenryFlower 07:17, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * My Ph.D. advisor was a hardcore vegan (for moral reasons); even fed his cats that way, giving them supplemental taurine so they wouldn't go blind. I asked him once if he would eat insects.  He said that, morally, he would probably be OK with it, but he just thought it was too gross. --Trovatore (talk) 22:00, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * A propos ... ---Sluzzelin talk  22:11, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

English and French polyglot
Which of the following sounds more natural? To me, they both sound grammatical, but I'm not sure which one is better.

I'm an English and French polyglot.

I'm a polyglot in English and French. Scala Cats (talk) 20:35, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Polyglot usually involves more than two languages. You could say "I'm a polyglot who speaks French and English", which implies you speak other unspecified languages as well. If it's strictly those two, then you would just call yourself a bilingual speaker of French and English --Xuxl (talk) 20:59, 20 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Biglot? Diglot? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:07, 20 May 2017 (UTC)


 * There's an old joke which runs something like "You call someone who speaks three languages trilingual and someone who speaks two languages bilingual, so what do you call someone who speaks one language? American..." -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:25, 20 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The first time I heard that joke, the answer was "English". --69.159.60.50 (talk) 00:02, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I actually heard it in Hebrew, with the three key words being תלת-לשוני, דו-לשוני , and אמריקני . (Of course I couldn't remotely remember or spontaneously re-tell the whole joke in Hebrew...) -- AnonMoos (talk) 07:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


 * And sometimes I think that's being generous. -- Elphion (talk) 23:57, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * How many Brits speak Spanish in addition to English? Millions of Americans do. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:18, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Not the newest figures, but a 2006 Eurobarometer reported that 34% of people in the UK and 38% of people in Ireland knew "a language other than their mother tongue" at the time. A 2001 Gallup poll gives about 26% for people in the US who "can speak a language other than English well enough to hold a conversation" (in over half of the cases Spanish, indeed). All these percentages are at the lower end in comparison with other European countries, one of the reasons, of course, being the lack of pressure to learn another language when you already speak the lingua franca. See for example "Oh, to be bilingual in the Anglosphere". (.. well, you chose to take the bait ...) ---Sluzzelin talk  01:49, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, as of 2011, Hispanics accounted for 16.7% of the national population of the United States, so it makes sense to ask, how many white Americans "can speak a language other than English well enough to hold a conversation"... HOTmag (talk) 08:01, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I am "white" in the sense of "gringo", but dream in Spanish regularly when it makes sense, usually in dreams that have to do with my days of working in a kitchen with Mexicans and Filipinos. I can also hold sophisticated conversations in French, and basic ones in German and broken Ruso-Slavic.  I had a roommate in New York Presbyterian hospital from Minsk whose English was very limited.  We got along well, but he kept worrying that the orderlies would know we were talking about them. Poly- means "many" (πολύς), not two, and is cognate with full. μηδείς (talk) 14:31, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't assume that all hispanics in the US speak Spanish. Many probably can only hold basic familiar conversations.Clipname (talk) 00:45, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I was horrified to learn that my neighbor's grandson, who was Dominican, was enrolled in NYC's ESL (English as a second language) curriculum, although English was his mother-tongue, and he could not conjugate a verb in Spanish, or understand anything besides curses and food words. Talk about racism!  The poor child was being taught to be illiterate in two languages, based solely on the fact of his perceived nationality. μηδείς (talk) 14:29, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * When I was first getting to know my partner, who was brought up in Sri Lanka, I assumed that English was his second language. His strong accent and his sometimes odd (to my ears) choice of words led me to that conclusion. I later learned that his mother was an English teacher and that (SL) English was his first and main language.  He can get by in Sinhalese but it's not his forte.  I like to think of myself as the antithesis of a racist, but this brought me down a peg or two.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

A moment-ous question
How long is a "moment"? I say it's at most a few seconds, while another editor says it's long enough for some bargaining, followed by a fight to the death (albeit between mismatched opponents - Doctor Strange vs. Dormammu - hence fairly brief). Clarityfiend (talk) 23:22, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * As with many such words, there is no precise value. It will depend on the context.  Here is the definition.  You'll note it does not list a specific window of time.-- Jayron 32 23:45, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I've been having an ongoing "senior moment" for some years now, as many here could testify. :) --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  03:37, 21 May 2017 (UTC)


 * A story is told of a man who climbed a mountain and called out, “Dear God, is it true that for You a thousand years is but a moment?” As his voice reverberated across the hills a thunderous echo roared its response in the affirmative. The man rapidly fired off another question, “Is it true that for You a million dollars is but a penny?” To which the distant roar again replied affirmatively. Humbly the man asked, “God, can you spare me a penny?” To which God replied, “Of course. Just wait a moment...” Wymspen (talk) 11:55, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

English consonants sorted by frequency
Does anyone have a complete list of all consonant sounds in English sorted by frequency?? I'm sure the rarest is the wh in which. It occurs exclusively at the beginning of words and in compound words whose second word begins with wh; somewhere is a word of the latter kind. Any complete list?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Letter frequency might could get your started in the right direction.-- Jayron 32 23:38, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * "Frequency of Occurrence of Phonemes in Conversational English"--William Thweatt TalkContribs 00:11, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * From its abstract, that source seems dubious, since it does not use the IPA, and it says that a, n, t, i, s, r, i, l, d, ε are the most common phonemes. It doesn't define a, doesn't address the cot/caught merger (or is that the cat vowel?) and suggests that i is both the 4th and 7th most frequent phoneme. μηδείς (talk) 02:45, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Whew! I looked at the link and thought it fishy, but my linguistics days are too far behind me. Listing the same phoneme twice also aroused suspicion. :) Matt Deres (talk) 03:29, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The abstract is from 1978, and may suffer from OCR issues when it was digitized. I suspect the two i's were different originally, and the a phoneme may have been different as well... -- Jayron 32 03:52, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The abstract says "The speech was transcribed using a quasi-phonemic system, known as ARPAbet," which gives me pause. The sit vowel should still come out as a small cap I, so I retain my dubity. In any case, it seems to be behind a paywall; I could not download the PDF. μηδείς (talk) 14:10, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Arpabet —Tamfang (talk) 18:25, 24 May 2017 (UTC)


 * You can do this (the paper from 1950 seems alright).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 15:13, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Direct link to the 1950 PDF. Note that this is NYC English, and has strndl and a second type of d (maybe edh?) as well as the schwa, cat and sit vowels all with at least a 3% frequency. μηδείς (talk) 15:30, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Alright, just added "rp" to the search query and got these.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 19:44, 21 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I suggest fast Fourier transformation of sound, first. -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 16:45, 25 May 2017 (UTC)