Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 November 26

= November 26 =

Company names are plural or singular in English?
Hi,

Should I write "Coke/Microsoft/SpaceX/Apple want OR wants to develop its OR their business?". Thanks118.71.64.44 (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


 * This can sometimes depend on the variety of English. See Manual of Style for details.    D b f i r s   08:08, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The OP geolocates to Vietnam, and the companies listed are all American in origin. The singular should be used, unless the OP is going to affect a British style for some other purpose. μηδείς (talk) 17:24, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The question is who you're writing for. If it's for Wikipedia, that answer is sufficient.  If you're writing informal North American English, the company wants to develop their business because they want more money. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 19:38, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


 * "its" is equally acceptable in American English. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:48, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


 * If I heard someone say "Verizon wants to increase their market share" I would assume "their" referred to a partner of Verizon, a third party, not Verizon *themself. Verizon does what's in its best interest, not theirs. μηδείς (talk) 01:04, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Typos on Polish WP page
The page on the Polish WP pl:Jerozolima wyzwolona has two apparent typos in the alternative title appearing both in the lead sentence and several references: either "Gofred" or "Goffred," and either "abo" or albo". As this has crept into a recently created, related-topic page on the Simple WP and the PL WP doesn't have a Language RD, I'd appreciate help here. -- Deborahjay (talk) 16:37, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


 * This is really a matter for the Polish talk page, but albo means "or" in Polish, while abo is not standard Polish (it does mean or in Rusyn and Ukranian) and the Gofred referred to is Gotfryd z Bouillon in Polish and the original spelling of his name in the Italian Epic Poem is Goffredo. All this can be got by using the foreign language links to read the various articles in English, Polish, Italian, French, and German, and Google translate for "or" since this is obviously a variant title. μηδείς (talk) 17:39, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Goffred abo Ieruzalem wyzwolona appears to be the original, 16th-century spelling of the title. It is common for Polish scholars and editors to transcribe old texts into modern Polish spelling. In this case, it's Gofred albo Jeruzalem wyzwolona. — Kpalion(talk) 10:44, 27 November 2017 (UTC)


 * this entry in the Polish Wikipedia is devoted to Torquato Tasso’s original (Italian) work titled Gerusalemme liberata, which is nowadays commonly known under the Polish title Jerozolima wyzwolona or sometimes Goffred albo Jeruzalem wyzwolona. The form albo “or” is Modern Polish, we do not use anything else now. Tasso’s work was translated into Polish in 1618 by Piotr Kochanowski, and he gave it the title Goffred abo Jeruzalem wyzwolona, where abo is the seventeenth-century (i.e. Middle Polish) form of this conjunction, completely obsolete now. As for the difference Goffred – Gofred – Godfryd I am perplexed myself, I will report t as a mistake right away. Maitake (talk) 17:25, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

"Verarschen kann ich mich selber!"
What do say in English? I didn't find any really satisfying equivalent either in my dictionaries or on the web…--Herfrid (talk) 18:27, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * "Verarschen kann ich mich selber, X!" would be "X, my arse!" in British English (or "X, my ass!" in American English). On its own, there isn't as exact a translation - something like "In your dreams!" (BrE) or "In a pig's eye!" (AmE) or "You're shitting me!" (both) might work.  Not something to say in front of your grandmother, in any case. Tevildo (talk) 22:41, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * You could say "In a pig's eye!" in front of your grandmother. The others, not so much. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:18, 26 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Any help? I'd take it to mean, "I can fuck things up myself (I don't need your help fucking things up)", but that's a guess worth nothing. Aspro's a native Deutscher. μηδείς (talk) 01:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Google Translate says that first word means "muck around". Methinks there has been some "cleansing" in that translation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * "Verarschen" is really not so much "fucking things up" but "fool somebody", but apart from that, Medeis' reading ("I don't need your help...") is basically correct. It's a sarcastic way of saying "don't try to fool me". (And Baseball Bugs, you were told not to randomly cite Google Translate, which is absolutely useless in cases like this. Why are you still doing it? Stop it.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:19, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * First, Google Translate says the phrase means "I can fool myself", which is closer to what you're saying than what everyone else is saying here. Second, show me a Wikipedia rule declaring that Google Translate is forbidden. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:03, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Tevildo's basically said it all. jemanden verarschen means "to fool somebody", "to pull somebody's leg". It's basically a dismissal of what the opponent just said. It is futile to hope for a one-to-one translation; how a native speaker would react depends on the context, on the mood of the situation (did they just tell a joke or a tall story or did they seriously try to take advantage?). I my view, Google Translate should be avoided per Verifiability. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:23, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * First, Tevildo didn't say that, but you did. Second, you've just ruled out using Wikipedia articles in response to questions, as Wikipedia is officially an unreliable source. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:48, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Whatever. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:51, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The OP is presumably not a native English speaker, so Tevildo giving vulgar phrases is not a good idea. Your version is much safer for all audiences. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:55, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The German original is vulgar: Arsch and "arse" are cognates. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:04, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Even so, it might or might not carry the same "punch" in German that it does in English. It would be nice if the OP would comment here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:15, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * But since you have absolutely no knowledge of the topic, your uninformed speculation is worthless. HenryFlower 14:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * At least I provided something approaching a reference. The other comments here are nothing but "arguments from authority". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:17, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Can the kindergarten behaviour maybe stop? Acting like children the lot of you, show some pride in yourself and the project you are representing perhaps? Now that my mini rant is over, there just is no 100% equivalent. An example for something similar from english to german perhaps would be "it's raining cats and dogs", which just makes no sense when just translating it. "es regnet Katzen und Hunde" is of course total nonsense so it would perhaps be translated as "Starkregen" (hence why google translate can be not very helpful for the like when unfamiliar with a language). There may be similar sayings in different languages, sometimes even the same ones. "Ass im Ärmel" and "ace up the sleeve" comes to mind among others. But sometimes there just is no equivalent. The sarcastic "don't try to fool me" is a decent translation of the meaning, in my oppinion, but obviously has otherwise nothing in common with the german expression. 91.49.95.110 (talk) 21:48, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you everybody. I guess then I'll have to put up with the fact that in this case, the equivalent probably does not exist... What exactly where you referring to when you wrote "Your version is much safer for all audiences" earlier?--Herfrid (talk) 21:24, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Just on the register: verarschen is informal, but not (very) vulgar - if used in good humour, it is ok in reasonably mixed society. It can be used in the sense of "to fool" (and is, in this context), but also as "to prank". If forced, I'd translate it as "I don't need your help to fool myself", but I don't know a standing phrase matching the German in both meaning and register. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:44, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Translation of text from Catalan to English
Hi, I'm looking to get the following text translated from Catalan to English. There are both quotes. I am not looking for a google or bing translation. The two quotes are:

Aquest pobre Triadú que per triar no te do si quan tria, tria dur, es que és un mal triador

and

Diu que el senyor Triadú que per triar no té do com que és un mal triador quasi sempre tria dur

Thanks. scope_creep (talk) 19:45, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

I know you don't want a google translation but this actually makes sense (if its a poem). Heres the text translated, This poor Triadú which to choose does not give you yes when you choose, choose hard, It's a bad triador

and

He says that Mr. Triadú Which to choose does not have any Because it's a bad triador almost always choose hard

YuriGagrin12 (talk) 23:13, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi YuriGagrin12, it is a poem of a sort. I'm not sure what sort though, but it need to be accurate for the article: Joan Triadu. Thanks. scope_creep (talk) 01:20, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

These are apparently plays on words. The first is clearer based on my OR as a Spanish speaker and using various resources:

Aquest pobre Triadú
 * This poor Triadú

que per triar no te do
 * Who for choosing has no gift

si quan tria, tria dur,
 * If when he chooses, chooses poor, (literally, "hard")

es que és un mal triador
 * Because he's a bad triador.

Note, traïdor is traitor. Dur may be simply "hard" the adverb, as in "he tries hard".

μηδείς (talk) 01:46, 27 November 2017 (UTC)


 * While traïdor means traitor, I think triador means chooser (triar + -dor). I don't know why it would be translated triador. —Stephen (talk) 22:30, 1 December 2017 (UTC)


 * My point in mentioning traïdor is that "triador" is not attested, but might be coined on analogy. There's also the other verse where Diu means "he says" but "Déu que el senyor triado" would mean God who the lord triad/trinity"--another possible play on words.  If you are wondering why I said "triador" in my mostly English rendering it was to point out the poetic license, not because I think triador is English.  All this is basically educated guessing on my part, so it should be taken as unusable OR, and we really do need an expert in Catalan literature.  I got out a book on Catalan poetry through ILL, but it was written almost entirely in English, and not at all helpful. μηδείς (talk) 04:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)