Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 October 5

= October 5 =

How exactly do you read this?
(unaspirated) /p/ - I watched YouTube videos, and they all make the sound sound like a soft b. It doesn't sound like a p phoneme at all. But I'm not talking about the sound. I'm talking about the slash. How do you say the slash? Do you just say slash-make a soft b sound-slash? Or do you say slash-pee-slash even though it sounds like a soft b? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 03:45, 5 October 2017 (UTC)


 * First, the interpretation of what goes between phoneme slashes is dependent on the specific language concerned, so /p/ with respect to English would include [pʰ] (aspirated), [p&#794;] (unreleased) etc. In any linguistics class that I was ever in, written "/p/" on paper or chalkboard would be read out as /ðə foʊniːm piː/... [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] -- AnonMoos (talk) 08:41, 5 October 2017 (UTC)


 * AnonMoos has it right. The sound is not a "soft b" but a /p/ with no puff of air following. (English /b/ is voiced and unaspirated; /ph/ is voiceless and unaspirated.  Voicing and aspiration are independent phenomena, many Indian languages have all four possible combinations.)


 * Learning phonology from text is like expecting to ride a bike after reading a manual. You need a good tutor or course with feedback from a live teacher, since the book or video can't actually hear you. See if you can audit a class or get a trained French or Spanish tutor, since those languages have unaspirated /p/.  German /ph/ is aspirated, like English. μηδείς (talk) 17:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)


 * /ph/ sounds like a p as in "peas". /p/ (without aspiration) sounds like a b, as in "puppies" and "spoil". That said, for some reason, I always find that the Mandarin b and English b sound almost identical. The only difference is that the Mandarin b is sometimes unvoiced (no vibrations). So, /p/ is really a b phoneme. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 00:02, 6 October 2017 (UTC)


 * You seem to be confused between /.../ transcriptions and [...] transcriptions, and between phonemes and phones. AnonMoos (talk) 00:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the initial and medial /p/s in puppies are both aspirated (the double 'pp' is just a matter of orthography). This is simply not a matter amenable to a non-face to face discussion.  The bottom line in English is that /p/ has an aspirated and unaspirated allophone, each of which is a voiceless consonant, while /b/ is voiced, and has no conditioned allophones. In other languages this works out often very differently. μηδείς (talk) 00:51, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Having a native tutor doesn't teach you phonology. You need someone who knows many languages for comparison and has done a lot of reading. --94.217.98.108 (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

German von etw leben
How would you translate "Das Projekt lebt von der freiwilligen Mitarbeit"?--Tuchiel (talk) 13:14, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I would go with "The project depends on voluntary co-operation." --Viennese Waltz 14:26, 5 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Native speaker here. +1 to VieWa´s translation.  Bear in mind that “von etwas leben” may also be used in a more literal sense (referring to nourishment or monetary income).  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:01, 5 October 2017 (UTC)


 * German speaker here: How about "The project is carried by voluntary co-operation"? --87.147.189.144 (talk) 13:34, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Word by word: "The project is kept alive by voluntary contributions". -- Hans Haase (有问题吗) 14:12, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * "kept alive" tends to the meaning of "life-sustaining-measures" --87.147.188.45 (talk) 22:12, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * "sustained"? Clarityfiend (talk) 00:37, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * "supported by"? Akld guy (talk) 02:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * As someone who studied German at school, I would say the "word by word" translation is "The project lives by voluntary co - operation".  So far as I can see, the construction is active, not passive. 92.8.220.234 (talk) 13:00, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * "… studied German at …": Which level? Any degree? --87.147.187.185 (talk) 13:39, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you everybody for your suggestions, first of all! Regarding the last (literal) translation: Could "live by" really be used in this figurative sense here?--Tuchiel (talk) 11:53, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Not in normal everyday English or in formal English. However, it may be used in literature as a figure of speech, or in oratory where for example, a fundraising speaker, addressing a crowd, is figuratively emphasizing that the project will be doomed if contributions dry up. Akld guy (talk) 20:14, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot!--Tuchiel (talk) 18:57, 11 October 2017 (UTC)