Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 September 19

= September 19 =

Digits separator in Canadian French
What digits separator does Canadian French use? Our article on the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique merely uses a space, which I've seen in some other languages but not English. This made me wonder whether the space were common in Canadian French, but its article doesn't discuss digits separators. Browsing fr:Catégorie:École au Québec shows me that it's really hard (if at all possible) to find numbers of four or more digits, aside from years, so I'm not at all sure what to think. Nyttend (talk) 02:43, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * It seems to be space (with the comma as a decimal point). Here are some articles in different newspapers:
 * Le Journal de Québec: example.
 * La Presse: example.
 * Le Journal de Montréal: example
 * And some tax forms:
 * A federal tax form. (Here's the corresponding English form.)
 * A Quebec provincial tax form. (Here's the corresponding English form.)
 * I don't say that everyone uses the space, but those examples seem strong evidence that it's a common usage. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 05:46, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * In Canadian French, the comma is used as a decimal separator, and a space (technically it should be a non-breaking space) is used for numbers with 5 or more digits. It's optional, and I think less common, for numbers with four digits. There are several articles about numbers in the Office québécois de la langue française's "Banque de dépannage linguistique", but they're all in French: La typographie : Nombres. The federal government also has a "Guide du rédacteur" with a chapter about numbers, all in French as well. The way people actually write numbers in French may differ, but these are the official recommendations from the federal and Quebec governments. (Adam Bishop (talk) 10:42, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Thousands separator and Decimal mark has relevant but unreferenced info. Note that SI style for English uses spaces. jnestorius(talk) 19:18, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Etymology of Georgian Nekresi
Does anyone have any references regarding the etymology of Georgian ნეკრესი? DTLHS (talk) 05:08, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * According to German Wikipedia: "In the fourth century, King Mirdat established a church in Nekressi where one of the thirteen Syrian fathers - Abibos Nekresseli - was active in the 6th century." Presumably one needs to know the origin of his name, which is unlikely to be Georgian. μηδείς (talk) 05:39, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Other sources call him Abibos of Nekresi or Abibus of Nekresi, so he may well be named after Nekresi rather than the other way around. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:59, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I looked into this at some length, a reference book of Georgian geography is needed. I think Nekresseli is likely to mean "of Nekresi" since Georgian is a suffixing language (e.g., -shvili ="child of") and it is unusual for a toponym to be shorter than its source. μηδείς (talk) 19:16, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Indeed, -eli means "from" according to Georgian names, so Abibos Nekreseli apparently just means the Bishop of Nekresi, a dead end. μηδείς (talk) 00:51, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The -eli suffix can be seen in all 13 names of the Thirteen Assyrian Fathers. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 08:56, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * were those the names they were known by though? the uniformity suggests it's modern, like the -ski in "Nikolay Kuzanski" or "episkop kenterberiyski" in Russian. Most people probably parse those as adjectives anyway, not as last names. 80.171.0.120 (talk) 17:02, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

When can the adjective go before the noun in Spanish?
I have read that when indicating a subjective feeling, the adjective must go before the noun. Anything else? 'Cuz I swear I have seen a phrase like this:
 * el malo hombre
 * el hombre malo
 * el hombre negro (by the way, does the color black have any significance in Spanish-speaking countries? Or does it really mean the Black man, as in the man's race is black?) 140.254.70.33 (talk) 17:21, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The rule is pretty much the same as in French, BAGS; beauty, age, goodness, size--these adjectives usually precede the noun. Also, placing the adjective first implies the quality is essential, rather than accidental.  E.g., El amarillo sol might be used in a sense to refer to the fact that there are no blue or green suns.  El sol amarillo sounds a bit odd, as if there were pink and purple suns.


 * There are also special pairs like antiguo. Mi antiguo carro = "my former car"; Mi carro antiguo = "my antique car".  See any good Spanish grammar, and Spanish adjectives. μηδείς (talk) 18:53, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * On another website, it reports that subjective feeling should direct the adjective in the beginning.

I am just wondering if there are any other grammatical rules regarding this I'm not aware of. Like what are the exceptions? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 21:47, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * la mujer vieja means the old woman. (Indicative of the fact)
 * mi mejor amigo means my best friend. (Opinion)


 * This is a very complex matter, not easily treatable in the format of the ref desk. Again, one could say "la mujer hermosa" which would contrast her to not-so-pretty women, or one could say "la hermosa mujer" which would mean that beauty is the essence of womanhood, sort of like "America the beautiful".  In many cases there's a choice of emphasis and more freedom than in English.  For example, "el gran capital" might be used just to refer to the capitol which happens to be great, while "el capital grande" would pick out the larger of two capitols.  "El estupido estudiante" in an abstract sense would imply all students are stupid, while "el estudiante estupido" would be picking out a single student as stupid compared to the rest. μηδείς (talk) 01:08, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I sense that we are not using the same terminology/phrasing. Previously, I focused more on subjectivity/objectivity dichotomy, but you just focused more on emphasis. So, are you suggesting that objective statements are made with less emphasis on the adjective and more on the noun, while subjective statements are made with more emphasis on the adjective and less on the noun? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 12:59, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd have to read your source. I've only ever taken three classes in Spanish, in the upper level composition course it was explained that putting the adjective before the noun expressed either emphasis or that a quality was essential to the noun, rather than distinguishing one noun from another.  This is something most speakers do intuitively.


 * So if you said in English "Ignorant peasants do not understand their own interests" with the meaning that all peasants are ignorant by nature, in Spanish you would say "El ignorante campesino no conoce su propio interes" while if you wanted to say that the one peasant who happened to be the ignorant one (out of many who might be quite sharp) owned a cow, you would use the usual order "El campesino ignorante tiene una vaca" and this would imply there were other peasants who weren't ignorant who might have cows or not--but you were pointing out the ignorant one of the lot.


 * To use your examples, "El mal hombre destruye su mundo" would mean man, who is inherently an evil creature, destroys his own environment, while "El hombre malo mata gatos" would mean a specific man who is evil kills cats, in implied contrast to the good man who doesn't.


 * μηδείς (talk) 20:42, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Italian has an interesting contrast between (say) sporco comunista, "dirty communist", which is an insult, versus comunista sporco, which also means "dirty communist", but in the neutral sense of a communist who happens to be physically unclean, and does not reveal the speaker's attitude towards communism. That doesn't seem to fit exactly into the rubric above.  Does Spanish have a similar distinction? --Trovatore (talk) 20:57, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, Troubadour I'd say that falls under the essence category. Sucio comunista and comunista sucio would fit the Italian exactly to my ear. μηδείς (talk) 00:25, 21 September 2017 (UTC)


 * BTW, to address an original question, one simply says la vieja (the old woman) or el negro for the black man or the old woman. The adjectives take on a nominal role, especially with people.  "El hombre negro" would imply something special, like the man dressed in black, or painted black in most cases. μηδείς (talk) 00:41, 21 September 2017 (UTC)